Soaps Role Madness! Town Wins!

[degaston]

I don't understand. The website says this role sees himself as Villager.

Why are we saying that Loose will be explicitly told he is this role if he's supposed to see himself as Villager?

Assuming for the moment that he is this role, what would you tell him about it if you were the mod?

Would you just tell him that he is a Vanilla Townie?

[pmchugh]

I don't understand. The website says this role sees himself as Villager.

Why are we saying that Loose will be explicitly told he is this role if he's supposed to see himself as Villager?

Good point, I assumed that sees self as villager meant alignment not role. It would be a unique invention if he was actually told. Would be a very interesting invention but that does make it less likely.

If he did know, I would wonder if mafia knew he knew, as that could change their play potentially.

[pmchugh]

It's also worth noting this is role madness, you can't tell someone they are vanilla.

[Loose Canon]

I am town claiming Fall Guy.

It wasn't underhand - I checked posts this morning before setting off for work, saw the votes were piling up on me, and hurriedly made my claim before going to work.
I said I was going to claim in 24 hours remember but had to cut that short.

I think if I get night killed by say a vigilante I think that means my allegiance will be revealed truthfully but I'm not entirely sure about that.
Also you should consider if that is correct and I was mafia and tried to carry out a night action and got killed because of that then my allegiance would be revealed truthfully.

I'm assuming Scum knew either from the start (or possibly N1) that I am Town and Fall Guy.

[Loose Canon]

Regarding what I think of Votanic.

My instinct when Vot posted that he had discovered I was scum was that Vot was telling the truth.
That might be confirmation bias because I was expecting someone to investigate me and say I am scum at some point.

The title of the game is Role Madness so scum given a false claim as cop wouldn't surprise me at all.
And with 2 town down and 1 arsonist down - the numbers say to me that - would it have been an absolutely crazy play for Vot (as scum) to have gone for the win there and then - at least not by my calculation.

I think Vot has to be watched carefully come what may.

But Vot also runs the risk of Vig and Grandma kill in his claimed role.

AND more to the point his reveals of further investigations will probably/possibly offer evidence of his allegiance.

I can't justify a vote for vot on D2 personally - I think he might find scum and my instinct is actually still that he is town.

[Loose Canon]

I think there are 3.5 scum out there. Lets say 3 but I think I think the amnesiac would have had a choice and if so it is 50/50 that the amnesiac chose Tracker or Arsonist and I do think Pyromniac is a Scum role.

Going with 3 though - the quick piling of votes on me is saying that perhaps 2 of those who piled in are scum.

And I also think 1 out of Pix, Swang, Dega, and PMC are scum albeit PMC has a slightly lower probability than the other 3.
PMC would be more than slightly lower had he not played such a blinder as scum last game.
I think one of the scum would have been holding back a bit on the voting for me - thats my reasoning on that.

If there are now or originally were 4 scum I have a sneaky feeling that 1 of Devante or Kong are and I favour Devante.
I guess if Devante or Kong started as the amnesiac though then as noobish players there is a somewhat higher probability they went for the tracker role - so by my rough maths that puts scum at 3.4 ish.

Finally a plea to townies - can 1 of you please unvote me - at least just for now.

[fusibaseball]

I'm still not grasping how this role functions. I must be missing something...

Assuming for the moment that he is this role, what would you tell him about it if you were the mod?

Would you just tell him that he is a Vanilla Townie?

If I was the mod and wanted to use this role, I would tell the player they are a Vanilla Townie so there is legitimate deception.

It's also worth noting this is role madness, you can't tell someone they are vanilla.

This is on the money. It doesn't make much sense to tell a player they're a Vanilla Townie in this setup.

---------------------------

LC was not told he's a Vanilla Townie because he's claiming Fall Guy.

So this player is claiming to be Town-aligned, and is legitimately town-aligned, but is revealed to Mafia to be town-aligned at the start of the game. How is there any deception in any of that? Aside from Mafia gaining knowledge that this player isn't 3rd party and is in fact Town, in which case the role is actually somewhat anti-Town because it garners Mafia concrete intel while not making up ground for Town. The component that it will appear as Scum upon death serves as an additional anti-Town function because it creates an additional layer of confusion for Town that would not exist for Scum.

TLDR I don't get the role. Seems made up

[degaston]

I'm still not grasping how this role functions. I must be missing something...

I don't know what you don't understand. This is the role description from mafia.gg:

Role: Fall Guy
Alignment: Town

• Sees self as Villager
• Revealed to all Mafia-aligned players at the start of the game
• Appears as "sided with the Mafia" on investigations
• Upon being condemned, revealed as a Mafia

I notice that it only mentions what happens if he's condemned. Maybe we'd get the truth if he died some other way. Of course, DDS can run this any way he wants.
With this being a role madness game, if LC flipped and it just said he was mafia, that might confirm that he was a Fall Guy, because otherwise, he'd likely have an actual role.
FYI, There's also a role called Con Man that appears to be the opposite. They are mafia aligned, but investigate as town, and reveal as town when condemned.

I'm confused about what you're saying here:

Assuming for the moment that he is this role, what would you tell him about it if you were the mod?
Would you just tell him that he is a Vanilla Townie?

If I was the mod and wanted to use this role, I would tell the player they are a Vanilla Townie so there is legitimate deception.

It's also worth noting this is role madness, you can't tell someone they are vanilla.

This is on the money. It doesn't make much sense to tell a player they're a Vanilla Townie in this setup.

You seem to be wanting to have it both ways here. You would tell him he's Vanilla Townie, but you admit that that doesn't make sense?

LC was not told he's a Vanilla Townie because he's claiming Fall Guy.

So this player is claiming to be Town-aligned, and is legitimately town-aligned, but is revealed to Mafia to be town-aligned at the start of the game. How is there any deception in any of that? Aside from Mafia gaining knowledge that this player isn't 3rd party and is in fact Town, in which case the role is actually somewhat anti-Town because it garners Mafia concrete intel while not making up ground for Town. The component that it will appear as Scum upon death serves as an additional anti-Town function because it creates an additional layer of confusion for Town that would not exist for Scum.

TLDR I don't get the role. Seems made up

All roles are made up.
But yes, Fall Guy would be considered an "anti-town" role. That doesn't mean that the player is anti-town, but their role may be disadvantageous to town in some way.
In this case, it could confuse us about how many scum there actually are, and/or how many we've killed. And it can also reduce the effectiveness of the Cop, though there might be other roles that could reveal more info about him. For example, a Role Cop (which I don't find in mafia.gg, but I have seen elsewhere) or Hypnotist.

Or this could be a whole lot of talk for nothing if LC is just lying scum.

[strike wolf]

Uggh. Ive got a headache and youre all being WAY TOO LOUD! Can someone get me a f***ing coffee?

So Fall Guy isn't a role I think I've ever played with before. I don't think not telling him would necessarily be bastardish, it just depends on the game and how it's balanced. Closest roles I can compare it to are Miller and Innocent Mafia (may not be the exact name). The Miller role is a weaker version of the Fall Guy where they would flip mafia on investigation but town after they were killed. Mafia also usually didn't know about the Miller. Whether the Miller knew they were a Miller usually depended on the game.

An innocent mafia is kind of an inverse Fall guy. They're a mafia that appears town on investigation. Key difference between an innocent mafia and a Godfather is that they would know who mafia are but mafia would not know about them.

Scenario 1: LC is telling the truth.

Hiding the Fall Guy role would be kind of weird in a presumably non-vanilla game if it's his only power. So him knowing he's the Fall Guy could make sense. It also lines up with his statements about Vot telling the truth despite the guilty result. From a balance perspective with an arsonist, a PGO and a Fall Guy in the mix, mafia would probably be pretty weak. Either reduced numbers or weaker roles. If mafia has normal numbers (3) for this size game though and we lynch LC then we could be a MYLO situation tomorrow and not even be able to prove it. (Lynch LC (10), mafia and other killer each get a kill (8), we lynch a townie (7) and then any townie death would give mafia the win).

Scenario B: LC is lying

Him lying fits with his hesitancy to claim. It also seems a bit easier to believe than trying to get a balance with a PGO, an arsonist and a Fall Guy in the mix.

Or maybe I just need some beer to keep me from over thinking this whole balance thing in a role Madness game.

PMC's behavior perplexes me a bit. If PMC is town then he has no reason to sound as confident that LC is telling the truth as he does unless he knows something about LC that the rest of us don't. However, I also can't see scum PMC defending a scumbuddy this hard and it seems even harder to believe that Scum PMC would defend a Fall Guy this hard. It would all but guarantee he'd be lynched the following day.

In short, you are all giving me a headache. Don't wake me up until the sun is down or someone fetches me another beer.

[Votanic]

I don't understand. The website says this role sees himself as Villager.

Why are we saying that Loose will be explicitly told he is this role if he's supposed to see himself as Villager?

Tbh, right now, this looks like scum in full-out panic mode, damage control. That would be LC, PMC, and Dega.

LC gets caught by the cop (me)... and handles his arrest poorly.
PMC has to come in and over-explain/misexplain LC's fake 'Fall Guy ' role ...because Town missed tha the actually said it.
I come back and poke some holes in his story.
So now Dega comes in to reinforce by asking a couple more, dumb, rhetorical questions.
This is Dega in the role that EW had to oddly drop, but a role too important to mod-kill.

FPed by strikewolf.

[kongming3]

To me, I'd be a lot more convinced by what LC is claiming if he'd spoken up on day 1. I know there was a whole conversation around not claiming on day 1 because it gives mafia more information to work with/narrow down the useful roles, but if he really was Fall Guy mafia would already know exactly what his role was so there is absolutely no town reason not to share that information with town and get ahead of any potential confusion. This seems like a game where you might never be able to be completely 100% certain about anything, but I think this is as clear a case of scum trying to fade away in the white noise as can be. I don't think there's any reason to let the death throes of an anti-town player be taken as anything but a final attempt to sow confusion and distrust.

[kongming3]

I also similarly don't trust PMC now, especially given he's apparently a very experienced and intelligent player. He just so happens to swoop in to bring up LC's conjured last-minute role again, and he believes he's telling the truth for some reason? He should know that it doesn't make any sense for LC to truly be innocent here. I also find it interesting that LC wanted to stall and wait for PMC to come in and speak and try to guide the conversation and help muddy the waters before he would say anything else. Obviously at the time other names were included, but I'd say it's pretty apparent who it was really directed towards based on who shows up to bat for him (PMC). LC even ignored the first two responses from that elite group and only responded right after PMC directed him to do so - I'm sure they'll have excuses for it but I have a strong suspicion of PMC which I don't think we should let fade away after we take out LC.

[degaston]

So now Dega comes in to reinforce by asking a couple more, dumb, rhetorical questions.
This is Dega in the role that EW had to oddly drop, but a role too important to mod-kill.

So you don't like people having a discussion about what's going on here?
DDS already mod-killed one townie. Was that not enough for you?

[Votanic]

^^^ This. This is what makes me think Kong is town. Not by asking noob-questions, but instead by giving an intelligent, well-thought analysis from a valid Town perspective.

Furthermore, strikewolf seems to have momentarily sobered up... and also gives us an interesting, in-depth analysis of the situ.
(Side note about his curious dipsomania: There is a mafia role calle Drunk', but it usually doesn't involve acting the part. Beside strike did say this has nothing to do with his role. Is becoming drunk an effect of somebody else's role? ...or does strike have a post restriction, that prevent him saying more? ...or was he just instructed by DDS to play drunk for reasons unknown? If so, pretty good acting, broadly done, but effective.)

[Votanic]

So now Dega comes in to reinforce by asking a couple more, dumb, rhetorical questions.
This is Dega in the role that EW had to oddly drop, but a role too important to mod-kill.

So you don't like people having a discussion about what's going on here?
DDS already mod-killed one townie. Was that not enough for you?

Dega, from a townie-perspective, please explain why you have felt the need to jump in and unqualifiedly (almost rabidly) defend LC's cockamamie 'Fall Guy' story.
Gee, you must be wise to something the rest of us aren't...

[degaston]

So now Dega comes in to reinforce by asking a couple more, dumb, rhetorical questions.
This is Dega in the role that EW had to oddly drop, but a role too important to mod-kill.

So you don't like people having a discussion about what's going on here?
DDS already mod-killed one townie. Was that not enough for you?

Dega, from a townie-perspective, please explain why you have felt the need to jump in and unqualifiedly (almost rabidly) defend LC's cockamamie 'Fall Guy' story.
Gee, you must be wise to something the rest of us aren't...

No need to shout. I can read just fine.
Please point out where I have defended his story. (Rabidly, or in any other way)
I pointed out that his claim was perfectly legible (I don't know why you thought otherwise)
I mentioned that it would make no sense for him not to be told what his role was. (Though I never said I thought he was that role)
I discussed the game mechanics of what I thought might or might not be likely if he was that role.
Those are not the same thing as defending him.

I think his story is probably bullshit, and I don't see any reason not to lynch him today, but I prefer to have plenty of discussion about it first, so that there's more to analyze on future days.

Also, where the hell is swang?

[Loose Canon]

Come on guys - being given a fake claim of Fall Guy - really?

[Votanic]

Come on guys - being given a fake claim of Fall Guy - really?

Enough of this... I don't care who came up with 'Fall Guy' (DDS?, PMC?, you?)
In any case, it certainly is a dumb claim because (drum roll) Fall Guys aren't supposed to know they're Fall Guys!!

Don't believe me.. go re-read the Fall Guy definition: https://mafiagg.fandom.com/wiki/Fall_Guy
You know, the one PMC thoughtfully provided before anybody else even knew LC was actually claiming...

[swang918]

Re votanic and the role description link that says fall guy sees himself as villager--when I read it the first time I thought it meant that seeing himself as "villager" just meant alignment--so fall guy just sees himself as town, not vanilla town. After rereading and thinking about it some, I think your interpretation that "villager" means "vanilla" here is actually the better reading and is probably right. But 1) if I interpreted villager as vanilla, then DDS mightve read it the same way, and 2) DDS did say this was Role Madness, and maybe this here is the madness.

[swang918]

As Pixar pointed out, fall guy is a very strong fake claim. The problem with lynching Loose today now is that even if we lynch correctly and he flips scum, we won't know we were right until the end of the game. We would still be kept guessing whether we actually got a scum or not. So it's a great fake claim for scum and wellplayed Loose if you are actually scum.

But just because something is a good claim TO fake, doesn't mean that the claim IS fake.

The thing that makes me lean toward Loose telling the truth is that on D1, he was all wondering and pondering and discussing the theoretical benefits of early claiming. The correct play with something like fall guy probably is in fact to claim early, and his posting is consistent with someone who kind of realized that but wasn't quite sure.

[Votanic]

As Pixar pointed out, fall guy is a very strong fake claim. The problem with lynching Loose today now is that even if we lynch correctly and he flips scum, we won't know we were right until the end of the game. We would still be kept guessing whether we actually got a scum or not. So it's a great fake claim for scum and wellplayed Loose if you are actually scum.

But just because something is a good claim TO fake, doesn't mean that the claim IS fake.

The thing that makes me lean toward Loose telling the truth is that on D1, he was all wondering and pondering and discussing the theoretical benefits of early claiming. The correct play with something like fall guy probably is in fact to claim early, and his posting is consistent with someone who kind of realized that but wasn't quite sure.

Shut up!? Enough of this Bizarro-world backwards logic.
The role of 'Fall Guy' is an anti-town role given to a town player, unbeknownst to himself!!. (btw, it is also basically a bastard-mod role)
The role is designed to give Scum a way to manipulate town into lynching a townie and never even know they did it. (Again, bastard-mod role)
Therefore, there is NO WAY that a player can claim the role because they don't even know they have it!

Gee, I don't know, maybe LC has a backwards Fall Guy role where he really is scum but shows up as town on the autopsy.... How amusingly mad...
We'll never know unless we lynch him... and I'm fine with waiting until the end of the game to find out.

For emphasis: Unvote... VOTE LC.

[fusibaseball]

I agree with Vot & Kong here. The claim doesn't make sense - he shouldn't even know he has the role to claim it.

And if he did, he should have just claimed Day 1. I see what Swang is saying about how his posts Day 1 were sort of dancing around it, but if we're going to assume this scenario where he actually knows he has this role, he should be claiming ASAP to avoid this exact situation (wasting Cop investigations and other critical Town night actions).

[Devante]

Sorry everyone work is giving me shit kicking and I am very fucking behind on everything. Need to catch up on all this but due to RL circumstances gonna UNVOTE as I don't want to be on bandwagons till caught up. hopefully by tomorrow I'll have some time for it

[pmchugh]

I don't understand. The website says this role sees himself as Villager.

Why are we saying that Loose will be explicitly told he is this role if he's supposed to see himself as Villager?

Tbh, right now, this looks like scum in full-out panic mode, damage control. That would be LC, PMC, and Dega.

LC gets caught by the cop (me)... and handles his arrest poorly.
PMC has to come in and over-explain/misexplain LC's fake 'Fall Guy ' role ...because Town missed tha the actually said it.
I come back and poke some holes in his story.
So now Dega comes in to reinforce by asking a couple more, dumb, rhetorical questions.
This is Dega in the role that EW had to oddly drop, but a role too important to mod-kill.

FPed by strikewolf.

You missed his claim because you don't pay attention to what others say and think on it, you just assert things in a one way monologue. Not sure if this is just how you play or because you don't need to pay attention because you aren't trying to catch mafia as part of them.

Kongs posting has grown quite good all of sudden, from complete noob comment at the start.

Everyone seems to be ignoring me talking about the fact LC had a lot of suspicion on him right away from strike wolf for bad reasons, this is one of the key reasons why I (currently) believe him. The other is that the claim is just quite absurd and under explained as mafia, to the point people are having to add me as a scum buddy to understand how the claim is supposed to do anything. It would be very weird and creative (but not impossible) from mafia Loose.

[pmchugh]

I wonder if LC is telling the truth and he dies, what would his revealed role be on lynching? Would it be just mafia goon? I would expect mafia to have roles in this game too although someone (I can't remember who) argued differently day 1. I guess maybe godfather is a possible thematic reveal as well. I think if he flips say mafia roleblocker that would make me much less likely to believe him.