Black Metal Mafia - SCUM WINS

[Charle]

I am happy to vote Max or Loose who I believe are our two scum bags. I agree with EW, cop would have revealed himself by now.

Loose because he was reluctant to vote Max and also the way he wants to fish out our jailkeeper who obviously figured something out. Jailkeeper should not come out yet, please, that is what scum wants.

Max is still scum in my books because of previous reasons and now even more because Loose saved his life yesterday.

Vote Loose

[Loose Canon]

Some thoughts.

Max got to 5 votes last day. Is he scum and Scum decided not to pile on to save him (Sonic said he was around to chnage vote if needed, but maybe didnt consider max scum or something else) or mafia was not around to hammer a townie.

I'm not completely sure on the 50/50 gamble, but if we got more info, maybe it's not a 50/50, I think Jailkeeper should only claim if he thinks he got more info. Not totaly sold on taking the gamble, but might be our best chance atm, but at least we got more time to discuss.

Max I think u should do a full claim. U were about to be lynched

On the 50/50 I agree if most obviously say Charle was jailed to protect him. But I did caveat it with everything else being equal.

On max claiming I disagree, I don't think it would actually tell us anything, what would he claim, either vanilla town or jailkeeper, and I don't think jailkeeper should come forward.
Vote pressure might make a jailkeeper come forward which whether max or someone else would be unfortunate.

[SoN!c]

Some thoughts.

Max got to 5 votes last day. Is he scum and Scum decided not to pile on to save him (Sonic said he was around to chnage vote if needed, but maybe didnt consider max scum or something else) or mafia was not around to hammer a townie.

I'm not completely sure on the 50/50 gamble, but if we got more info, maybe it's not a 50/50, I think Jailkeeper should only claim if he thinks he got more info. Not totaly sold on taking the gamble, but might be our best chance atm, but at least we got more time to discuss.

Max I think u should do a full claim. U were about to be lynched

On the 50/50 I agree if most obviously say Charle was jailed to protect him. But I did caveat it with everything else being equal.

On max claiming I disagree, I don't think it would actually tell us anything, what would he claim, either vanilla town or jailkeeper, and I don't think jailkeeper should come forward.
Vote pressure might make a jailkeeper come forward which whether max or someone else would be unfortunate.

Loose, you have been posting/hinting/fishing/triggering the cop and jailkeeper to come forward or respond in any form possible all game long (and by doing so it generates possible answers from the PR that could hold crumbles of info to find them). Even just now (on D4), Thu Feb 13, 2025 10:50 pm, you said :

...
I think if the jailkeeper revealed themselves we'd be virtually forced to lynch the player they jailed.
I think that would take us to either 6 town 1 scum, or 5 town 2 scum (assuming no recruit)
If there was a recruit then detective and other jailkeeper should (I think) come forward straight away after 1st jailkeeper has come forward.
...

So you explicitly ask for "a jailkeeper to come forward first". But in the no recruit scenario (and there is no cop if you ask me, there is just only one jailkeeper...), this means what you are really saying here is that the only jailkeeper has to come forward.. that is pretty damning.

Also it contradicts your opinion on Max, in the very same post... Because even yesterday Max "could be the cop" right? You asked him plenty, but today (with nobody dead in between) it's "what would he claim, either vanilla town or jailkeeper" No longer a possible cop then? A little slip of the tongue?..

[Loose Canon]

I outright deny that I have been fishing for cop all game long.

I also deny that I want jailkeeper to come forward right now.

I don't think the lack of a kill changes the probability of there not being a cop since yesterday at all, in my opinion the probability remains as it was at end of D3 - probably no cop, no recruit.

IF however there is a cop I think they probably should come forward right now because at this point Cop followed by 1st Jailkeeper followed by 2nd Jailkeeper , should between them have enough to unlock this from town. It would reduce the risk of a mislynch in a 5 v 3 scenario significantly vs a 5 v 3 scenario without coming forward.

In a no cop 6 v 2 scenario we can afford a mislynch, and you know what I'm quite relaxed if thats me.

It would/should shake up some thinking when I flip town, and here I'm explicitly saying Charle your stated logic in this game is in the most part out of sync with mine - you would need to seriously think about changing tack.

Speculating no cop, and drawing inferences from that, is a very different thing from fishing for a cop.

vote Sonic

[Loose Canon]

I am happy to vote Max or Loose who I believe are our two scum bags. I agree with EW, cop would have revealed himself by now.

Loose because he was reluctant to vote Max and also the way he wants to fish out our jailkeeper who obviously figured something out. Jailkeeper should not come out yet, please, that is what scum wants.

Max is still scum in my books because of previous reasons and now even more because Loose saved his life yesterday.

Vote Loose

You are wrong on at least 50% of your scumduo

You are wrong to place reliance on Ew because he is a good player.
With players who are strong like Ew they will be strong as town or scum.
You have to try reading between the lines.

You were wrong spirit of the game with your D1 play.

You are wrong that I'm trying to fish out jailkeeper.

You are incorrect that I tried to save Max's life. I increased pressure on him with questions, but as stated I didn't feel the lynch, and it could have happened without me. As stated it needed 5 votes and no cop, there are 6 town.

I'm relaxed about you voting me, I'm still annoyed about your D1 play, don't let your ill-gotten power go to your head. Worse thing would be town to lose despite/because of that.

[Ragian]

Official vote count



Max (1) - Devante
Loose (3) - Kong, Son!c, Charle
Son!c (1) - Loose

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

show: Posts

[SoN!c]

Loose,

Your answer :

..."I also deny that I want jailkeeper to come forward right now."...

If you argue with "right now" after anything you say, then you can say your always right ofcourse..

The point is: You wanted jailkeeper to come forward at the beginning of D4. That is the point.., do not dodge the point or the questions at hand by turning it in a snowshow like you do everytime.

A simple answer to the point will do. That's all.

Second point of the question was you defending Max again, this time saying ""what would he (Max) claim, either vanilla town or jailkeeper" while yesterday you were hinting / asking / wondering (whatever you wanna call it) that he could be the cop.. if today you are sure Max is only "vanilla town or jailkeeper" then clearly you know there is no cop in play and your contradicting your play of yesterday while nothing has changed. Yesterday you wanted everybody to believe there was a big chance Max could be the cop..

Im sure you see the conflict in your reasoning here?. That is easy to get i'd say? And then it should be easy to answer to the obvious points.

[Loose Canon]

Ok so I think I'm correct in saying, everything else being equal, there is a 50/50 chance the jailkeeper jailed a hitman or an intended target.

I believe there would only be 2 nights of semi clears and how useful that information would be depends on whether the N1 semi clear is still in the game or not.

I think if the jailkeeper revealed themselves we'd be virtually forced to lynch the player they jailed.
I think that would take us to either 6 town 1 scum, or 5 town 2 scum (assuming no recruit)
If there was a recruit then detective and other jailkeeper should (I think) come forward straight away after 1st jailkeeper has come forward.

I've not computed all this to work out whether I think on balance jailkeeper should come forward.
Does anyone disagree with anything I've said above?

Ok so where in this post early D4 was I saying jailkeeper should come forward then sonic?

[SoN!c]

Ok so I think I'm correct in saying, everything else being equal, there is a 50/50 chance the jailkeeper jailed a hitman or an intended target.

I believe there would only be 2 nights of semi clears and how useful that information would be depends on whether the N1 semi clear is still in the game or not.

I think if the jailkeeper revealed themselves we'd be virtually forced to lynch the player they jailed.
I think that would take us to either 6 town 1 scum, or 5 town 2 scum (assuming no recruit)
If there was a recruit then detective and other jailkeeper should (I think) come forward straight away after 1st jailkeeper has come forward.

I've not computed all this to work out whether

I think on balance jailkeeper should come forward

.
Does anyone disagree with anything I've said above?

[SoN!c]

And please answer the question in regards to Max too if you will. Always answering a question with a question is what scum do to talk them out of the hot pot in front of them.

[Loose Canon]

Sonic, because I like you as a player because you put a lot into it, and irrespective of me suspecting you as mafia in this game I will answer my thinking around Max.

Its difficult to believe with 4 players down and no jailkeeper or detective down that there has been a recruit.
What actually changes that probability quite a bit, but still leaves it as a more likely than not no recruit, is if Max is either a Detective or a Jailkeeper.
Because mafia are a lot less likely to hit Max than anyone else.

I pressed Max yesterday for answers to 2 of my questions for 2 reasons;
1. To establish whether he was paying any attention to the game
2. To see if I could get him on board with a lynch of you or EW today - if the votes were/are stacking up. I was ok with his answer yes Sonic, no EW.
I'm not making any assumptions about whether Max is scum, Vanilla Town, or Town with a power.

But the fact Max did engage in answering, was enough for me to not want my vote to be part of a lynching.
Remember I had and still do have 2 more favourite suspects than those I'm currently neutral on namely A. Sonic and B. EW

Here's the thing Sonic.

If you are town, you are playing a shocker (albeit entertainingly) because one of us flips town, suspicion lands on the other, and I know what I am.
(the thing I have going for me if you were to flip town is I've not gone exclusively for you, and more to the point you've tried to drown out not just suspicion but also strategic opinions I've being offering - I don't think you can say the same)
If you are mafia, ok fair enough you are doing what you think you need to do (whilst playing entertainingly).

We are made from different stuff than the rest of the players, we are both almost addictively active posters.
Rightly or wrongly as such I have I think a mafia read on you, but I'll allow it could be we are both wrong.
My read is my read though.

[SoN!c]

It would be shocker you flipping town yes. Okay so you say im tunneling..

But the heart of the matter is your defending Max all game long. As town there is no way you can know Max is also town.

And i do not believe we have a cop. So we are in a no recruit game with just 1 jailkeeper. And With no recruit Charle is 100% town. That is a FACT. Ofcourse scum will want to keep that as long as possible in limbo.

Scum can only do that if a part town thinks there is still a possible cop in play (and thus a second jailkeeper) -what could come in handy too if scum wants to fake claim. Because fake claiming could tip the scale or perhaps it forces the real jailkeeper to come forward (so the scumpartner has a better chance of survival on his own knowing who the jailkeeper is).. That is why the question i posed at you about Max is so important.

Because you are still defending Max, even today, while you have to know the possibility there is a cop in play is astronomical small by now...

But there you are: still saying (on D4) ""what would he (Max) claim, either vanilla town or jailkeeper"...like oh well, it's just Max let him be.

But just yesterday you were hinting / asking / wondering (whatever you wanna call it) that Max could be the cop..


So if today you are sure Max is only "vanilla town or jailkeeper" then :

A) Clearly you know there is no cop in play and your have contradicted yourself and your play of yesterday (while nothing has changed).
B) Your defending a player (Max) who was voting for the only 100% confirmed town which is very scummy to say the least.
C) You are/were one of the "cop believers" until the very last moment because even yesterday you wanted everybody to believe there was a good chance Max himself could be the cop.
D) The fact remains that you, today, are still (soft) defending Max.

PS: You say you like me as a player because i put a lot into it... but you also wanted me dead almost asap in this game (right after Pix and together with Strike). Scared i was gonna come after you? A town Loose would not have done that. One of the reasons why i was starting to suspect you.

[Loose Canon]

Well, I suspect you most of all or at least I say I do , you suspect me most of all or at least you say you do - I want to look at and listen to other lines for now.

Good luck Sonic if I'm lynched before you.

[Loose Canon]

I disagree with Extremes arguments that Not Recruiting was not the best play.
I do appreciate the counter arguments he has put forward though.
I also disagree that because EW is a good and valuable player for Town, thats a reason for not lynching him.

I've gone down the line that Not Recruiting was the smartest play, and that puts my deemed smartest player EW in the frame, and I'm not ditching that either.

Most of all EW is in the frame for me right now because of Sonics play.

The line I haven't explored yet and its one I want to is Who Would Not Recruiting Appeal to Most?

I for one would be in the frame for that because I'm more comfortable with simple than complex.

Then there's Traf, Kong and Dev.

Traf is smart, and (I think) prefers no power games, and has tripped some alerts for me earlier.

Kong is I don't think its flattering to say, a smarter faster newish player than me. Nothing has tripped alerts for me with Kong so far. Also I sort of feel Kong would prefer the challenge of the complexity of going up against a cop more than no recruit.

Dev I only really know has a good player reputation.
He's one of the most quiet players - I sort of feel not recruiting might appeal to him - it goes with a quiet considered style of play I'm thinking.
His comment on wouldn't it be funny if me and Sonic were both scum, triped a sort of alert but I'm not sure what kind of an alert.

I think I want to listen and consider more than talk for a while, but first of all I wanted to air this.

[SoN!c]

Sorry LONG POST to answer Loose:

Loose, If you are town and vanilla how can you find that out? You can only just sit and wait...so thats a waste of time on D1 to D2 for sure.

"Who Would Not Recruiting Appeal to Most?" that is also
faulty reasoning..

Let me explain: because simply there are 2 scum together. "Who Would Not Recruiting Appeal to Most?" applies to a single character..not to the two together. So that is fault questioning - more snow and smoke show.

Lets go along in that reasoning:
Would Loose recruit? He says no so lets say no recruit for Loose.
Would Max recruit? Yes i think so.

But the real question is : would for example Loose and Max together recruit? If i was Loose and my scumpartner was Max i would not recruit and im pretty confident Loose and Max together would not have recruited either..

Do you agree Loose?

So lets go back to Max and his "yes outcome on recruiting". What info do you have with Max alone being listed here as "yes recruiter" while in reality, with Loose, Max did not recruit.? You got Zilch. Faulty reasoning.

Another example: Kong according to you is a recruiter and thus he is no scum in your "yes recruit scenario" / "no recruit scenario" (if we are in a no recruit) kind of reasoning. But would Kong and EW together have recruited? Or Kong and Max...i don't think so.

Do you agree Loose? One single player having listed here as a recruiter y/n means nothing on its own. You have to list all possible duo's if you wanna go down that road (only the duo's as it actually is).

A better strategy, to me anyway, is you look for all the cop believer propaganda. If time tells you you are in a recruit scenario that is not much you got in the end.. Perhaps one of them is the cop for real.. But if you find you are in a no recruit scenario... bingo. That is where you will find scum.

I have you listed as a cop believer (among possible others) but you are n°1 when it comes to cop believer propaganda.

Discuss

[SoN!c]

SHORT VERSION: The reason why its important is because that faulty reasoning gives a scum Loose a good possibility to wiggle shit. So Loose: lets assume your scum for arguments sake.. just pretend your scum: Could you wiggle / accuse town / defend scum with that type of faulty reasoning? Y/n?


Also: if you wanna track down all the possible duo's on yes recruit or no recruit then we will be done 13 days after scum won the game?.

[Loose Canon]

sigh Sonic, that is wordy saying very little but arguing a lot.

1. On linking me and max, you were the one who was ready to lynch but didn't - a bit obvious but.
2. There's something about EWs no recruit sucks comment that COULD be genuine.
3. If townies don't lynch you, don't lynch me, don't lynch ew who might I get on a lynch for today- that's the point of my post.
I don't right know now if the answer to that is nobody, for somebody I'll listen to arguments, the player id most be inclined is actually dev, but the answer at the end of the day could be nobody or different.

I think there are probably 6 town including me, and if so a 5 town lynch is possible without me.

[SoN!c]

"the player id most be inclined is actually dev,"

To lynch? Not me? No more "its sonic, its sonic its sonic"?

[Loose Canon]

Read what I actually said in 3.
You are my preference sonic.

[Extreme Ways]

I am mostly concerned about everyone flying under the radar at the moment.

[Loose Canon]

Would be funny way this thread has gone if it's Loose/Somic who are scum and the plan was let's just ream on eachother. For now not much has changed from my perspective unless we get new info so I'll continue with last days target. VOTE MAX

Is Loose/Sonic just ironic?

Isn't Max just Lame/Tame/Shift the Blame?

[Extreme Ways]

I dont understand why today everybody is so willing to vote Loose?

Yesterday all the talk pretty much revolved around Sonic/Loose/EW and we converged on Max in the end I guess. Now, everybody is piling on Loose and I do not see what changed...

[Loose Canon]

To the extent that guys think it's either me or sonic I'm ok with that.

If guys other than sonic, think it's me they should address their thinking to me.

I think I'm right in saying that a mislynch on me today would pretty well commit town to a lynch on sonic tomorrow as things stand, and vice versa.

Important guys get this right and that they do understand what they are committing to tomorrow - as things stand.

Happy to take one for the team if that is so.

[SoN!c]

To the extent that guys think it's either me or sonic I'm ok with that.

If guys other than sonic, think it's me they should address their thinking to me.

I think I'm right in saying that a mislynch on me today would pretty well commit town to a lynch on sonic tomorrow as things stand, and vice versa.

Important guys get this right and that they do understand what they are committing to tomorrow - as things stand.

Happy to take one for the team if that is so.

Loose, If this somehow goes into a mislynch it is because you defended Max so hard. A Max that is voting for a 100% confirmed townie in a no rectruit. Don't blame me for pointing that out.

You have by far the highest chance to flip scum for the reasons i stated. I do agree that at least one scum would be flying under the radar here. And, most likely, they would do that as a "fast scroller through / low poster cameleon". It sure could be Max but i dunno. A scum Loose would try anything to have a town Max on his side, having an extra scum vote in his sleeves by doing so. And as town it makes no sense at all to protect max like Loose does..so i like the odds better on Loose then on Max.

[Loose Canon]

Anyone who buys Sonic's - it's me because of max line, hasn't read that I've explained my thinking all the way along this game.
Also whatever you think of my plays saying you are on standby to lynch then not being so is sloppy at best.
Not voting on standby might just be sloppy, but might also be oh f***, Ew is 4th vote on max, if I'm 5th, max flips town, it might look like scum hammering, that puts me (sonic) in the frame?