The Hobbit Mafia [Town win]

[MudPuppy]

I am calling bullshit,I DON;T GIVE A f*ck ABOUT YOUR SO CALLED GIFTS, PROVE IT , WHO DID YOU USE THEM ON?

Prove it?!?!? Is there not enough validation and re-validation going around that convinces you I'm town?

It's you who claimed "I am town and will PROVE it if needed." Yeah, I'm calling you out on it because a backup doc can't prove anything until he's lynched. If you are telling the truth, you are VT until a vacancy opens up. Even when you become the new doc, how would you prove to the rest of us that you are town?... Perhaps on the next day you'd say something like "I protected Thor and he's still alive so that proves I'm town"??? That's what is bullshit. There's no way for you to prove you are town and your claim that you could is either a lie or very poor judgement.

So, that's what you did to bring suspicion upon yourself. Now that you've responded to my "nagging," you've claimed backup doc... which you've been hinting at for a while. Perhaps in a game of 16, a backup doc makes sense... but this game also has a Jailer & an inventor who can give out a one-shot protection... So, a backup doctor sounds a bit overkill to me (4 roles with protection powers of some sort!!!). This mixed with the fact that after 4 nights, there is no solid evidence that a doctor has protected anyone. It's possible, and perhaps even likely, but it's also possible that with a Jailer and an inventor with access to mithril, LoVo felt a pure doc wasn't needed. Even if he did... would he feel the need for a backup doctor too??? Sure, it's possible, but your "I will prove it if needed" statement doesn't jive with your claim at all.

Question for MudPuppy: So you gave a gift of elven rope to KamakaziJawa on just a hunch that you thought he was town, right? If so, it was a good hunch... and it seems like it should have been enough slow Samlen's hand... KJ never got to use that piece of sting either... unless he could use it the night he was killed?

Yes, at the time (N2), I had a pretty solid town read on KJ largely due to a now forgotten comment he made during the day. But he would have been my #1 scum target today if he were still alive so I am in full agreement with Samlen's choice of targets last night. Not saying I don't have my doubts about his claim but Samlen's choice of targets has nothing to do with any doubts I have.

[Minister Masket]

I find it unlikely there is a Jailer, doctor, & backup doctor in this game as one of the gifts I'm able to give out is a one-shot doctor. It also makes no sense that mitch claimed he could "prove" he's town based on being a backup doc.

I'll happily confirm this. Puppy gave that to me last night, though I didn't know it came from him. I used it on Pika, likely in vain by last night's events but I could've quite easily have been killed myself and lost it anyway.

I'm assuming by your wording Puppy that you can re-gift every night. If that's the case, I suggest repeating the gift to me so that I can use it on you next night. The mafia arn't gonna want a spare doc still in the game.

[madmitch]

Apologize for my outbreak,but this game gets on my nerves sometimes,I don't know why I received this role but I am telling the truth ,,before you hang me think about this I was on the Dakky lynch ( scum ) did not vote for Bujaber ( town ) and hammered Hot Shot ( spy for scum ) now take a look at Samlen a so called town vig ? did not vote for Dakky, voted for BuJaber and granted he did vote for Hot Shot he turned around and killed K.J. ( town ) just think about that before you kill me

[MudPuppy]

You may be telling the truth... but you hammering HotShot means nothing since it appears that The Enemy didn't know who their spy was.

Samlen's claim makes sense to me... it could still be fabricated but a 2-shot vigilante role for Bard fits the flavor nicely.

Bombur, while loveable, does nothing but eat and sleep and does not fit well flavor-wise with a doctor role. In the movies, according to lotr.wikia.com, he "has virtually no dialogue in the films other than grunts or retorts." Not saying he couldn't be cast as a backup doctor and you can't be blamed if you truly were given that role... but the pieces don't fit nicely. Bombur just doesn't seem very doctorly and the role is arguably unnecessary given the presence of a doctor, a jailer, & an inventor with mithril.

You also haven't explained your comment about proving you are town. If you are being honest about your claim, it's clear that you have no good way of providing any proof of your loyalty to town... so what was the purpose of that comment?

[ZaBeast]

Here are the possible option for what happened tonight:
1- KJ used the roleblock he got from MP. I would think he would have used it on mitch. Would mean mitch is the recruiter.
2- Flores is the recruiter (and only scum left), and couldn't send her night action last night.
3- Scum targetted KJ
4- Scum targetted Pika
5- Someone has been recruited
(Option 1 and 2 means there's only one scum left)
I'm guessing scum have no roleblocker (which would make sense if there's only the recruiter left), since MP's action got processed before the end of the night (as MM could use it tonight)

I'd like to hear the resonning behind Sam's choice of target btw

Thor,I think we need to examine every possibility. I don't think we should lynch one of the confirmed town until the recruiter is dead, but we need to bear in mind one of us may now be sided with scum. If the recruiting happened last night, anyone could be sided with scum. If it happened earlier, or didn't yet, every confirmed townie should be in the clear for now. I for one don't mind the idea of having one people change alignment during the game (that's also the idea behind cult). The game should be about trying to find who is scummiest and lynch them based on that, not whether they have the most believable name claim after all.

I'm open to pressuring mitch (I agree he need to explain how thought he could "prove" he is town after the doctor died (if there is a doctor), but I'll hold my vote for now, as I'm waiting on Flores or a replacement.
I agree pika is way too quiet now (esp. when compared to the start of the game)

[madmitch]

Yes I stuck my big foot in my mouth,I can't prove I am town until I take over the docter role and save someone ,I spoke in hopes that the mafia would come after me instead of the real Doc,I was not that important in the book or the movie just a side kick ,so I figure at least I could take 1 for the town.

[MudPuppy]

I still don't understand what you mean by you can't prove you are town "UNTIL" you take over the role & save someone... How can that scenario prove to the other townies that you are town??? Stating that you protected someone and who didn't die the night before isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

[madmitch]

@ Mudpuppy when you say that way ,you are right I can't prove I am town .I miss spoke and now I need 1 of you guys to check me out to see I am not lying, Where is everyone else ? how come you and I are the only ones here ?

[Samlen]

Was hoping we got more info last night, but i've never had a backup doctor in a game before so I doubt there'd be one, especially in a game with so many protective options. Vote Mitch

[ZaBeast]

Was hoping we got more info last night, but i've never had a backup doctor in a game before so I doubt there'd be one, especially in a game with so many protective options. Vote Mitch

So you shot KJ to get more info, not because you thought he was scum? What info do you expected to get? If you were leaning scum on him, why so? And if you didn't find him particularly scummmy, isn't shooting him the opposite of "being conservative about shooting people"?

A jailkeeper claim isn't guaranteed to be town, as a scum rolebloker could masqueraded as a jailkeeper without stretching their role too far. However, based on Ragian's reaction with thinking he caught MM lying, I am leaning town on him for now. I'm not sure a scum roleblocker would have been that obvious he was a roleblocker on a gambit.

THIS is one reason I willing to not vote for H.S. at the moment, My sights are set on K.J. because Rags thought something was off but I am willing to go with towns decision

Well, that puts me at L-2 and time to claim I guess. Unfortunately, I don't have anything special to claim, I am Elrond, and just provide lodging to the questers. I am a VT. If there are any trackers around they could verify I've never gone anywhere, and I'm sure no watcher has seen me either. (No, I don't want anyone if they are those roles to claim to save me, but there isn't really any other way to prove being a VT lol)

Nice try, do not believe you sorry, VOTE HOTSHOT

What made you change your mind about HS, mitch?

[madmitch]

IT just didn't seem like a believable claim, I know look who's talking,

[Samlen]

Was hoping we got more info last night, but i've never had a backup doctor in a game before so I doubt there'd be one, especially in a game with so many protective options. Vote Mitch

So you shot KJ to get more info, not because you thought he was scum? What info do you expected to get? If you were leaning scum on him, why so? And if you didn't find him particularly scummmy, isn't shooting him the opposite of "being conservative about shooting people"?

My bad I meant today. I shot kj cause I thought he was scum and I waited a couple days to vote mitch since I wanted to see if anyone else had info they were gonna share.

[Thorthoth]

Where the heck are Flora & Pika? I'm not doing anything until I hear from those clowns.

[MudPuppy]

Flores is apparently being replaced.

[lord voldemort]

I am attempting to find a replacement for Flores.

[ZaBeast]

I've seen pika lurk around, and he has no reason to not post in here.
Vote Pika, the more I think about the sekret info he had D1, the less sense it makes to me
How is a guess about the setup bound to be detrimental to town in case he's wrong?

My guess is that nobody does have multiple characters as their role, and with that being the case I have information I wish to share before the first night phase, however if I am wrong about that then my revelation is bound to be harmful to town.

it's probable that the role list is as follows (with three or four of these roles merely being the fake claims of scum roles):

show

There is more I could say about this list, it is in fact taken almost unchanged from the post I had been planning to make, but all I will say today is that I have fairly strong reasons to believe that some of those towards the bottom of the list are indeed scum.

Also, Sam, why did you find KJ scummy? Is it a hunch or is there more reasonning involved in it?

[Samlen]

Bit of a hunch. He hadn't done much and played the I'm still a noob card a bit when pressured. Plus, I was still hoping for a claim from the other suspicious people that had at least claimed they had a pr (like pika).

[Pikanchion]

Wondering if lack of a night kill may be an indication of cult presence? Did the owner of the One Ring (not that the ring can truly be owned) successfully convert an unsuspecting Townie over to the dark side (yeah, I know it's the wrong movie... but you get what I'm saying)?

Was this speculation or information provided to you?

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Abilities
Vote: During the day, you may use your vote to aid in lynching a player.
Spy: You can not be killed by a mafia kill, nor can you be recruited. If you are the only mafia member remaining you will not be able to perform the factional kill.

I don't think this necessarily implies a recruiter in the mafia team, rather that even if they discover that HotShot53 was on their side, they cannot become a full member of the mafia team. Either way the unconfirmed group must contain at least one scum though.

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Killing Kamikaze Jawa was the perfect way to frame madmitch as scum if you were looking to do so, there was no definite mafia kill last night, and a Two-shot Vigilante seems a little out of place to me (while also being amazing cover for scum this late in the game, as after the third night the game will already be over assuming a successful lynch and kill each day). Samlen has not really made posts advocating for lynching anybody throughout the majority of the game and effectively lurked their way through it.

madmitch claims Backup Doctor which also seems out of place, and their actions have been erratic throughout.

I am fairly confident that one of madmitch or Samlen are scum. If we don't have a Doctor then it is definitely madmitch, if we do have a Doctor I'm not sure. If we do have a Doctor then they must be either ZaBeast or FloresDelMal. I think we need a role claim (just the mechanics) from anybody who has yet to do so (even those who are confirmed), and a full claim including character name from FloresDelMal.

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I am Glóin and I am a Vanilla Townie, when I received this role I immediately drew conclusions from how such a relatively important character could only be a Vanilla Townie; either this was a fairly low-power (sort of a more traditional Cop/Doctor/RB/+3-4 Standard-ish Mafia with the rest as VTs) game, or I was one of the least important of the town-sided Dwarves (perhaps both), and hence any claims of being a Dwarf lower on the list that myself was to be highly suspect. My list was formed entirely under the presumption that all the Dwarves would be present in the game—either as single roles or as groups—hence my first question, I knew there was a possibility that characters outside of the main Company may be present but I saw this as unlikely without dwarves doubling or tripling up to make space for said additional characters. My second question would have been along the lines of if anybody was playing a character outside of this main Company but it seemed too risky a question to ask (either for myself or for any potential power role who knew better to answer—And Thorthoth's Gandalf comment had me assuming they were Gandalf so our only Townie it might be safe to ask would have no useful answer in this case) so after toying with ways to phrase it in a safer way and not being able to come up with much I simply assumed it not to be the case and posted my list.

Until Ragian's death there was no real indication to me that any of my initial conclusions were incorrect, now that at least some of them are I can perhaps be less sure of the others. I need more information from those who are currently withholding it or any vote I make today will more or less have to be random out of the three other unconfirmed players.

[Thorthoth]

Pika, your pronoun usage. Ugh!

...but I digress. Now for actual game-related points I want to make.

1.) First of all, it is a real shame about Flora. At this point it will take an exceptional replacement to process everything that has already happened in this game. A replacement is going to make it much harder to puzzle out that character's alignment.

2.) So Pika is Gloin. I have no reason to disbelieve it, but since scum seem to have each gotten a gift-wrapped fake ID at the start of the game, I have no reason to believe it either.

3.) Like I said before, if there is a recruiter, town is just so screwed.

4.) If we can count on scum only being among the four non-confirmed players we still have a very tough job. None of them look that clean, though Flor did play townish before his disappearance.

5.) Unless some new evidence or convincing argument is presented, I don't think I'll vote for Flor or Pika. They just seem less scummy at this point...

6.) Samlen and Mitch, both seem scummy MAYBE BOTH ARE SCUM. That would make it easier. For now, I'm withholding my vote, to allow for a bit more discussion and get an official vote count.

7.) Official vote count, please.

[Thorthoth]

Nevermind, I'll do it myself.

Mitch (2): Mudpuppy, Samlen
Pika: (1): ZaBeast
not voting (5) Flores*, Pika, Mitch, Minister, Thorthoth

[ZaBeast]

Yes I stuck my big foot in my mouth,I can't prove I am town until I take over the docter role and save someone ,I spoke in hopes that the mafia would come after me instead of the real Doc,I was not that important in the book or the movie just a side kick ,so I figure at least I could take 1 for the town.

Where were those feelings during D2? Remember, the time you didn't want to hammer dakky? And the first time you actually said you were super important was during D2 anyways so I don't see it making sense.

Pika, didn't you say in your list Bard was nearly sure to be town?
And how was your revelation "bound to be harmful to town" if you were wrong? From what you said it's just guesswork anyways
Oh, and Unvote

I am not a doc. I don't feel like disclosing any abilities I might have, but I can full claim if necessary.

[ZaBeast]

Also, mitch, do you have any other reason to suspect Sam other than the fact he didn't vote for dakky and said he shot a townie last night?

[Pikanchion]

Pika, didn't you say in your list Bard was nearly sure to be town?
And how was your revelation "bound to be harmful to town" if you were wrong? From what you said it's just guesswork anyways

My initial plan had been to suggest a mass character-name claim on day one, and failing that any other actions taken based on something which is untrue is bound to go wrong. Perhaps we would have lynched Ragian for instance.

...the likelihood of Bard as a town-sided character to counter Smaug (from a lore perspective, if not also mechanically should Smaug be a third party) means that in my mind it's probable that the role list is as follows...

Bard must be town (or at least a benign third party) if Smaug is in the game, if there is a mafia recruiter then Smaug is not on the mafia side (as there's no realistic way that Smaug would be a recruiter, and a four person mafia team with even one-shot recruitment abilities is not plausible), if Smaug is in the game as a third party they (while presumably a Serial Killer) haven't actually killed anybody yet from what we can tell, therefore if Smaug is in the game they must almost certainly be mafia-sided and the mafia don't have a recruiter.

If the mafia do have a recruiter (and Smaug is not in the game) then Bard no longer has to be Town in my eyes, and of course even if they were originally they could have been recruited.

[MudPuppy]

Wondering if lack of a night kill may be an indication of cult presence? Did the owner of the One Ring (not that the ring can truly be owned) successfully convert an unsuspecting Townie over to the dark side (yeah, I know it's the wrong movie... but you get what I'm saying)?

Was this speculation or information provided to you?

It was pure speculation... I have been given no additional info.

[madmitch]

@ Zabeast he also voted for Bujaber