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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:22 pm

Vote Count

Skoffin (1) - Pikanchion
Ragian (1) - ZaBeast
strike wolf (1) - Ragian
Pikanchion (1) - aage
DDS (1) - dakky
aage (1) - DirtyDishSoap

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is May 1st.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby ZaBeast on Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:45 pm

dakky21 wrote:
ZaBeast wrote:While it's possible he has a post restriction of writing his posts as if they were a letter, from what I get from the flavor of the opening post, everybody is a commander, most likely the ones that came to the meeting, but some of them are traitors. So I don't see how having such a post restriction would be alignment indicative if it was the case.


Well, you said it right there. If the traitor is among those who came to the meeting, then it is not among those who did not, lol. I'd say it's pretty much alignment inicative ;) I may be wrong of course.


So you think his role pm specifies him being away and as a consequence he has to write his posts as if they were letters? I feel that's reading too much in the opening scene. How I saw it was that the mention that not everyone went to the meeting is just a reference to the low turnout. I guess only time will tell (or strike ;) )
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby strike wolf on Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 am

Dear Melinda,

It appears me acting as a goofball has killed the game. Also, the idea that a PR would he given that could reflect alignment would reflect bastard modding. Do you believe Doom is a bastard mod?

With certainty,

Strike Wolf
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Pikanchion on Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:12 am

strike wolf wrote:
Pikanchion wrote:Do we really even get any information when somebody is lynched if they have sufficent HP not to die from it? -With HP values of different players hidden (and potentially at different starting values given they have only been explicitly stated in the role PMs so far) there's really no telling how long it will be until the first person dies, and without a role reveal we can't even use the voting patterns as particularly reliable data until potentially much later in the game if the initial lynchee is not killed for some time...

Could this be a game where no lynch is the best option?

The most important variable here is how much damage scum do on their NK, if they only hit for 1 like the lynch then assuming we have a cop it's surely better to keep everybody as healthy as possible while the cop gets on with their job, they may well find scum before anybody even dies.

The best info well get is still what we would usually get voting patterns and people reacting to how the vote goes. However, without confirmed flips from lunches, voting patterns become more murky. Still as always, the worst mistake a town can make is to not give the appearance of trying to lynch. We can't rely on the idea that there is even a traditional investigative role in an experimental game (there may be no cop and tracker/watcher results could be obscured by mafia kills not going through on the first try due to the hp system). Even if there are providing pressure and getting slips can help focus investigations.

I've been continuing to mull this over for a few days, and I still believe a No Lynch is the best option for today at least. Scum's nightkill can't be a one hit kill unless there is only one scum player because otherwise it quickly becomes impossible for town to ever win (say we have just 2 scum with 2 HP each, then town can only afford one mislynch during the entire game), so with that in mind a succession of random lynches by town at the start is just giving scum a list of weakened targets for easy pickings as the game progresses.

We should either all agree to lynch the same person that is chosen for today's lynch every day until they die (thus giving the normal benefits associated with lynching that we miss out from due to the HP system without leaving a load of different people injured), or No Lynch until we have some degree of actionable intel from night actions (even if that information is not as specific as a cop's night result).
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby dakky21 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:23 pm

I am sure Strike has a PR role, perhaps he comes "home" next day and the PR goes off, but I'm pretty sure he is on the battlefield now. That's the reason he didn't attend the meeting and my reasoning he is not scum, because I believe scum was one or two of the attending Generals.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby ZaBeast on Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:24 pm

dakky21 wrote:I am sure Strike has a PR role, perhaps he comes "home" next day and the PR goes off, but I'm pretty sure he is on the battlefield now. That's the reason he didn't attend the meeting and my reasoning he is not scum, because I believe scum was one or two of the attending Generals.


strike wolf wrote:Dear Melinda,

It appears me acting as a goofball has killed the game. Also, the idea that a PR would he given that could reflect alignment would reflect bastard modding. Do you believe Doom is a bastard mod?

With certainty,

Strike Wolf


What do you make of that? Also, why do seem so sure when you say "that's the reason he didn't attend the meeting"? Is it to fit with your theory or do you have a information about that that I don't?

I'd agree with pika that lynching without learning the roles is not very helpful, because town stays blind even after the lynch and until the flip, which might take a while depending on the hitting power of the scum team and who they decide to hit. And also claiming would be an issue (do you claim when a lynch would kill you, when you're at risk of losing 1 HP and therefore put yourself at risk of getting picked on by scum in the meantime, or somewhere in between (if you have more than 2 HP)?)
With the lynching to kill option pika suggests, I'm a bit concerned by the activity on the days following the initial vote. It also pretty much defeats the purpose of the HP system (though I wouldn't care if we end up agreeing that's the best option we can come up with). I do think we should lynch though. I don't think it's critical we lynch today (especially if it's to kill, maybe we should wait to give the relevant power roles a chance to learn something before we decide on someone to focus on for the following few days).

And mitch is right, skoffin hasn't posted since she confirmed. Could she be prodded?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Pikanchion on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:19 am

ZaBeast wrote:And also claiming would be an issue (do you claim when a lynch would kill you, when you're at risk of losing 1 HP and therefore put yourself at risk of getting picked on by scum in the meantime, or somewhere in between (if you have more than 2 HP)?)

I had given this some thought too; claiming is going to be an issue whatever we do.

If we decide players don't need to claim the first time they are lynched then they have no reason to claim until they are already close to death, at which point a low HP scum player could potentially gift their team the knowledge of any remaining role in the game by simply claiming to be said role and forcing a counterclaim at the last moment. Worse is the fact that scum can afford to not claim for longer than town players can, safe in the knowledge that they won't be picked off by an easy scum NK if they wait until their last HP to claim. Meanwhile a town player may feel the need to claim at 2 HP, because claiming any half-decent role at 1 HP near guarantees they won't survive the night anyway.

If we expect a claim on the first lynch, however, you create an incentive for powerful town roles to lie in their claims because scum will be the only ones who have no reason to doubt they're telling the truth. If they don't claim then town lynches them in x days, if they do claim (truthfully) then scum NKs them in x days, but if they lie and town believes them they won't be lynched and scum will likely target other players looking for those perceived to be more powerful, even if town doesn't believe them they still only die in that same x days because scum won't be wasting their NK on somebody they know town is set on killing.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Ragian on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:43 am

Well... Suggesting a no lynch isn't the worst thing I've heard ever... However, I do raise an eyebrow when people discuss format and hypotheses rather than participation.

I'm not sure what I've missed, but I've definitely missed something. I don't know why Strike wouldn't be with us, nor am I completely grasping the HP idea to be honest. I need to reread this thread while you drag Skoffin in here.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Ragian on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:00 am

Right. The HP thing is "explained" in the first post. Still not sure what HP means, but the lynching system is pretty straightforward (even for me).

And in the Prologue it says that not all generals were at the meeting. Gotcha...

@dakky (or daily), how do you know that Strike never attended the meeting?

unvote strike

I agree that we should agree to either no lynch (depending on PRs, of course) or stick to one person until said person dies from our doublelynch. I could go for skoffin, dakky, DDS, well, anyone at this point. I don't have an opinion on any player stuck in my head. All I see is dakky trying (too?) hard to fit a narrative to Strike, DDS saying nothing at all, Pika, Beast, and Strike pondering hypotheses, and Aage doing as little as me. Skoffin is not even here.

Also, someone raised a nice question: How harsh is the scum nk? Does it take one HP or a life entirely? Would the mod tell us as much?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Pikanchion on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:21 am

Ragian wrote:Also, someone raised a nice question: How harsh is the scum nk? Does it take one HP or a life entirely? Would the mod tell us as much?

That somebody was me, but I also already answered it =P
Pikanchion wrote:The most important variable here is how much damage scum do on their NK, if they only hit for 1 like the lynch then assuming we have a cop it's surely better to keep everybody as healthy as possible while the cop gets on with their job, they may well find scum before anybody even dies.
Pikanchion wrote:I've been continuing to mull this over for a few days[...]Scum's nightkill can't be a one hit kill unless there is only one scum player because otherwise it quickly becomes impossible for town to ever win (say we have just 2 scum with 2 HP each, then town can only afford one mislynch during the entire game)
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby aage on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:07 am

strike wolf wrote: Do you believe Doom is a bastard
yes.
mod?
oh. Still yes.


I would rather not divulge how many HP points I have, nor would I suggest anyone else to do so at any point. The point of the lynch is to eliminate scum, not chip away at HPs until we miraculously find the scum. It's best to assume that lynching someone would always eliminate them from the game. And if you're voting for someone but you don't want them to die, I suggest you try to get into the rookie game after all because you've missed a fundamental principle of the game. Votes don't have less value because of the HP system.

I doubt the mafia would only need one NK-action to murder someone with more than 1hp, otherwise there'd be no point nor balance to the HP system. There are possibly multiple killing blows necessary to actually kill someone, but the lynch is still determined by majority (a 1hp player has the same voting weight as a 5hp player), so sharing our HP would make it much easier for scum to eliminate players and thus starve the town of much-needed voting power.

Don't forget Doom's warning.
Of course, I made it so that you can't play the mod at all.
I don't think the HP system is a reason to deviate from the regular game plan. We simply have less information to work with. Also don't forget:
It's impossible to know what roles/characters are in the game and there might even be duplicates.
I'm not expecting name claims to have a lot of weight. They shouldn't, anyway. I expect we're gonna need to do some good old fashioned police work in this game.


I still don't think no lynch is a valid option, though. Your argument is that we're shooting blindly and softening someone up for the scum NK, but the former goes for every game and the latter is irrelevant. We can't sit on our hands until something happens. If we lynch someone and scum NKs them the next night, I would argue that the wagon and everything leading up to the lynch would be very valuable indeed. If we do nothing, scum get their NK and we learn nothing. Same as every game.

Gaming the system aside,
dakky21 wrote:I am sure Strike has a PR role, perhaps he comes "home" next day and the PR goes off, but I'm pretty sure he is on the battlefield now. That's the reason he didn't attend the meeting and my reasoning he is not scum, because I believe scum was one or two of the attending Generals.

This is the biggest load of flavor based bullshit I've ever heard. Not only are you basing your read on the scene vs. Strike's flavor posts, but you are also ignoring the most important one.
strike wolf wrote:Dear Martha,

The war has taken it's toll on me. Due to continued shortages food has become more scarce. I often dream of the decadent meals we used to have. My fellow soldiers remain eager however.

Buj had to go home sick with mustard gas poisoning but his replacement Ragian has brought his own brand of enthusiasm. You'll be happy to know that Dakky is his usual skittish self. Aage for his own part seems deep in thought. DDS has again upset the general and been put back on dish cleaning duty. Sometimes I think he prefers it there and of course there's Pikanchion who I have twice saved from walking into enemy fire while he was distracted by his animal capturing game.

I do feel concerned about two of our number. This morning at role call, Skoffi n and ZaBeast avoided the traditional greeting. My comrades take this for mere disrespect but I can see through them.

Vote ZaBeast.

With Love,

Strike Wolf

P.S. it's also because I've never played with him before. :p

He's "with us". Now please play the game properly.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby aage on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:11 am

Pikanchion wrote:
ZaBeast wrote:And also claiming would be an issue (do you claim when a lynch would kill you, when you're at risk of losing 1 HP and therefore put yourself at risk of getting picked on by scum in the meantime, or somewhere in between (if you have more than 2 HP)?)

I had given this some thought too; claiming is going to be an issue whatever we do.

If we decide players don't need to claim the first time they are lynched then they have no reason to claim until they are already close to death, at which point a low HP scum player could potentially gift their team the knowledge of any remaining role in the game by simply claiming to be said role and forcing a counterclaim at the last moment. Worse is the fact that scum can afford to not claim for longer than town players can, safe in the knowledge that they won't be picked off by an easy scum NK if they wait until their last HP to claim. Meanwhile a town player may feel the need to claim at 2 HP, because claiming any half-decent role at 1 HP near guarantees they won't survive the night anyway.

If we expect a claim on the first lynch, however, you create an incentive for powerful town roles to lie in their claims because scum will be the only ones who have no reason to doubt they're telling the truth. If they don't claim then town lynches them in x days, if they do claim (truthfully) then scum NKs them in x days, but if they lie and town believes them they won't be lynched and scum will likely target other players looking for those perceived to be more powerful, even if town doesn't believe them they still only die in that same x days because scum won't be wasting their NK on somebody they know town is set on killing.

You're not wrong about the reasoning, but I think your conclusion is off. If a town player claims truthfully and the town believes them, then yes, scum is probably going to kill them. You're thinking from the individual perspective and only considering the individual results, though. Yes, that player will likely die in X days. But that's X days the town isn't wasting their time trying to lynch a townie, and instead scum is presumably wasting their time chomping through your HP. There's a massive difference between getting mislynched and getting NK'd for the result of the game.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Ragian on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:09 am

So, Aage, for those less fortunate, you're saying that we should play the game as we usually play even if a lynch means that we aren't lynching anyone due to the HP system, right?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:17 am

Ragian wrote:Well... Suggesting a no lynch isn't the worst thing I've heard ever... However, I do raise an eyebrow when people discuss format and hypotheses rather than participation.

I'm not sure what I've missed, but I've definitely missed something. I don't know why Strike wouldn't be with us, nor am I completely grasping the HP idea to be honest. I need to reread this thread while you drag Skoffin in here.

I think discussing flavor for what I feel like is going to be a long game for eight players and how to form a stratagem around it is going to be more beneficial for us in the long run.

I've PMed the mod about the HP thing the initial start of the game, and lynching is 1 hp and NK's he did not elaborate on. So, either scum/vig have an ability that can outright kill a player, set value or RNG.

I'm not wholly opposed to the idea of a no lynch, but at the same time, if we know for certain a player is scummy...And we never lynched him at all throughout the game, that could spell towns doom.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:20 am

Vote Count

Skoffin (1) - Pikanchion
Ragian (1) - ZaBeast
Pikanchion (1) - aage
DDS (1) - dakky
aage (1) - DirtyDishSoap

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is May 1st.



Skoffin has been prodded. I will not elaborate on night actions.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Skoffin on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:50 am

I'm here to win and slap fish.

Seems to me the logical thing to do is to lynch someone and see how much HP they lose from it; aside from that being the obvious thing you should do every game, but it seems to me that there likely varying degrees of HP and some may even outright live through a lynching.
Anyway, I still need to read up. But Pika is probably scum.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby aage on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:51 am

Ragian wrote:So, Aage, for those less fortunate, you're saying that we should play the game as we usually play even if a lynch means that we aren't lynching anyone due to the HP system, right?

Essentially, yes. I think it's a bad idea to tell whether you'll die to the lynch or not. Besides, there might be roles that only have one HP. It's safer to assume that whoever is being lynched can actually die. I want to stress this because I got the impression from previous posts that people think we can lynch 'willy-nilly' cause it doesn't kill them anyway. This is a very harmful attitude to the town, in my opinion. Voting for someone should mean you want them to die to the lynch. The HP system should not change that, otherwise wagons have no meaning and there's nothing to analyse.

fp by skof
We already know that a lynch will take 1 (one) HP off.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Skoffin on Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:10 am

hrurp.

I agree with your hypothesis, we should just carry on the game as per normal, at least until we start seeing any affects from this system. There are many ways this could play out; different people starting off with different HP, roles that could collect/increase HP for themselves or others, roles that could add multipliers to HP loss on other players etc. A HP system would make the game far slower, unless there were both 'action' roles such as killer/vig and effect roles such as someone adding a boost or a debuff to someone else to speed things up a bit.

Anyway, I think the real question here is why, when Doom explicitly said not to try playing the mod, that dakky immediately went to playing the mod.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby dakky21 on Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:29 am

Skoffin wrote:Anyway, I think the real question here is why, when Doom explicitly said not to try playing the mod, that dakky immediately went to playing the mod.


Don't I do that in every game?

Anyway, if I was making a game with hit points system, I'd definitely give scum a wide range of weapons which deal different amount of damage. So I wouldn't role out that there can't be D1 lynch or N1 kill.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:21 am

Skoffin wrote: I'm here to win and slap fish.

Seems to me the logical thing to do is to lynch someone and see how much HP they lose from it; aside from that being the obvious thing you should do every game, but it seems to me that there likely varying degrees of HP and some may even outright live through a lynching.
Anyway, I still need to read up. But Pika is probably scum.

+1 for skimming you airhead.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Ragian on Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:34 am

Thanks, Aage.

This is going nowhere. Anyone up for flipping a coin?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:13 am

You can join me on my gut feelers for Aage. Super uber strong case.
Dukasaur wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.

Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.

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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby Ragian on Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:51 am

Is it super strong because you have a super strong gut?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby aage on Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:59 am

I'm not really keen on getting lynched over a gut feeling so I'll point out that your gut is influenced not only by me but also by whatever it is you've been eating or drinking. Now it's often said that "we are what we eat", so presumably it was dirty dish soap, and your gut is therefore not to be trusted.

The only real lead I have so far is on Dakky so I'll move my vote accordingly. Basis is making a big deal out of Strike's unusual posting style and drawing alignment based conclusions from it.

Unvote
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 1

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:08 am

Ragian wrote:Is it super strong because you have a super strong gut?

Its over 9000 strong. My testies hurt from it.
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saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.

Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.

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