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[Abandoned] - Exodus

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Re: Exodus V2.6, pg.9 New Update!

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:59 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Now I feel that Hashmonah, Jobathah, and Makheloth are disadvantaged by starting in the center. Meanwhile, with the tabernacles giving so much bonus, there's little reason any player would want to expand out to Egypt. Even with +2 for 2 pyramids, the tradeoff for having to take all the neutrals in the West probably won't be worth it.


Suggestions?? Reduce the tabernacles to +1 for every 4 and increase cities and pyramids to +2 for any two? How about if I increase the Pharaoh, Moses, Aaron Raamses bonus to +4?
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Re: Exodus V2.6, pg9 Need ideas and sugg. aka need feedback!

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:31 pm

The plagues bonus seems a bit undervalued... You have to hold and defend 10 territories, and you only get 8 troops for them. It might be better to divide them into 2-3 smaller bonuses.

On the other hand I'm not sure if plagues giving a bonus makes sense thematically... I wonder if you could come up with some other kind of gameplay dynamic for them. Just a thought...

Then there's the pyramids and the cities... the legend is a bit ambiguous on those. It says Any 2 cities or pyramids = +1. Does it mean you need to hold 2 cities or 2 pyramids to get +1? Or can you hold 1 city + 1 pyramid to get +1? I think this needs to be made clearer.

What does Migdol do? It doesn't seem to give any bonus, and it isn't in the "way" of anything, so I don't see any reason why anyone would bother taking it?

Overall, I think the map has lots of potential. It has come a long way, but I think there's still more you could do with the gameplay to reflect the theme better... as an example, moses could attack the plagues which would be killer neutrals, and the plagues could each bombard a different part of the map... now this would not necessarily be a good or working dynamic, but it's an example of how the gameplay could complement the theme.

Here's another idea: you could divide the map to 2 parts, the pyramids, and the israel's journey. 4 starting positions on each side. Then you could put Moses in between with lots of neutrals on him to connect the two areas... Then the pyramids would have the plagues, and the israelites would have the 10 commandments... which would work as killer neutrals that could one-way assault or bombard some territories on the other area.

Just brainstorming, but perhaps it'll help you think of something to spice up the gameplay... ;)
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Re: Exodus V2.6, pg9 Need ideas and sugg. aka need feedback!

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:The plagues bonus seems a bit undervalued... You have to hold and defend 10 territories, and you only get 8 troops for them. It might be better to divide them into 2-3 smaller bonuses.

On the other hand I'm not sure if plagues giving a bonus makes sense thematically... I wonder if you could come up with some other kind of gameplay dynamic for them. Just a thought...


Okay, so here's an idea. Hold all plagues and corresponding pyramids for +6 for the first two sets, and +8 for the last set and have the plagues able to attack each other. This would in effect mean that you would have to alter your tactics a little by forcing you to concentrate on defending your position before going and collecting bonuses. In so doing it could possibly prevent people from going hog wild to try and gain a lot of bonuses early on.

Then there's the pyramids and the cities... the legend is a bit ambiguous on those. It says Any 2 cities or pyramids = +1. Does it mean you need to hold 2 cities or 2 pyramids to get +1? Or can you hold 1 city + 1 pyramid to get +1? I think this needs to be made clearer.


Yes it does, how does "Any 2 cities or pyramids, or 1 of each = +1" sound?

What does Migdol do? It doesn't seem to give any bonus, and it isn't in the "way" of anything, so I don't see any reason why anyone would bother taking it?


True, I wonder if Migdol and Mt. Hor can be tied in together for a bonus of +1?

Overall, I think the map has lots of potential. It has come a long way, but I think there's still more you could do with the gameplay to reflect the theme better... as an example, moses could attack the plagues which would be killer neutrals, and the plagues could each bombard a different part of the map... now this would not necessarily be a good or working dynamic, but it's an example of how the gameplay could complement the theme.

Here's another idea: you could divide the map to 2 parts, the pyramids, and the Israel's journey. 4 starting positions on each side. Then you could put Moses in between with lots of neutrals on him to connect the two areas... Then the pyramids would have the plagues, and the israelites would have the 10 commandments... which would work as killer neutrals that could one-way assault or bombard some territories on the other area.

Just brainstorming, but perhaps it'll help you think of something to spice up the gameplay... ;)


Thank you natty!

Just thinking now, how about having the Pillar of fire and the Pillar of cloud bombard the pyramids and be killer neutrals, and have the 10 Commandments bombard Israels Journey? Of course I would have to put semi-high neutrals on both Pillars, say 5, and 10 on the 10 Commandments (coincidence yes?).

I like your idea of Moses and Aaron attacking the plagues, but instead of attacking, I'm thinking of having them bombard the plagues instead which would be like Moses raising his staff and the plague came, I LIKE IT, I LIKE IT!! :P

Evil DIMwit wrote:... with the tabernacles giving so much bonus, there's little reason any player would want to expand out to Egypt. Even with +2 for 2 pyramids, the tradeoff for having to take all the neutrals in the West probably won't be worth it.


After thinking it over and looking at the map, I'll probably reduce the tabernacle bonus to +1 for every 2 or +1 for every 3.

That's it for now until I get a new update posted here shortly!!
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Re: Exodus V2.6, pg9 Need ideas and sugg. aka need feedback!

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:39 pm

Okay so here it is.

After careful consideration, I have decided to make this map as a random deployment as there will be 2-3 players that will get the advantage, which will cause it to be too far imbalanced.

Changes made:
- Changed plague bonuses to reflect holding all plagues and pyramids in a given set
- Moses and Aaron now can bombard all plagues, just like they were starting the plagues on God's command
- All plagues can now attack each other
- Pillar of Fire and Cloud can bombard all pyramids and are killer neutrals that reset to 5 each turn
- 10 Commandments can now bombard all Tabernacles and start with 10 neutral
- Reworded the "Any 2 pyramids or cities =+1" to "Any 2 pyramids or cites or 1 of each =+1
- Changed holding 2 Tabernacles for 2 to hold any 3 Tabernacles for 1

I know there was a couple of other changes but here is the new update!!
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Re: Exodus V2.7, pg9 Need feedback!

Postby natty dread on Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:05 am

Hmm. Not sure if random deployment works with the bonus system you have... :-k

Also for the plagues + pyramids, might there be a way to visually tie the connecting pyramids + plagues together? This would save legend space and make the connections easier to grasp. Perhaps colour-coordinate them? For example you could have Tanis, Raamses & Gizeh red, Succoth, Kahun & Sais brown, and Hawara, Memphis, Heliopolis & Bubastis yellow.
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Re: Exodus V2.7, pg9 Need feedback!

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:56 pm

I like the direction that this map is going. The more you draw the gameplay to tie into the theme, the stronger that this map will be.

The good stuff:
The 3 (or 2, really) build-a-bonus regions make all areas of the map viable/playable. That's a big help. Keep the bonus for the 2 Pyramids/2 cities/1 of each, and the +1 for 3 towns/tabernacles.
Most of the connections seem pretty clear, as do the killer neutrals (although a symbol for the Red Sea Crossing might help, but that's minor)
I love the weathered parchement look of this map :)

OK, here's the concerns I have:

Natty has a point- there are a lot of words in the legend with the plagues.

But more than that, I'm not really comfortable with the whole "bonus for plague cities" idea... I understand that ultimately these plagues helped the Israelites leave bondage and begin their journey, but it seems counterintuitive unless you attach the plagues somehow with the Israelites rather than being a stand-alone bonus.

Maybe naming these bonuses could also help, to give an idea of what's supposed to be "happening" when they are held. After all, this map in many ways is telling a story.

For instance, why the bonus for holding Moses, Aaron and Ramses? You could label the bonus "Audience with the Pharoah" (or something shorter that fits in the space ;) ). That would make the map come alive, I think, in ways that are lacking to anyone who hasn't read Exodus.

Gilgamesh is a good example of an ancient text come to life. I've never read it -I never even heard of it until I saw the map in fact- but the labelling of the "Challenges" and the names of the regions evoked a sense of perilous, epic barbarian adventure, and of course the flavor text in the header helped as well.

You've got some good elements of the tale here- Pillars of Fire & Cloud, Plagues, Israel's Journey, and the Snakes. But I think the gameplay bonuses are still hazy in regards to story.

Back to the Plagues... maybe, connect them with Moses directly? Say like this:
Hold Plague = -1
Hold Plague + Relevant City = 0
Hold Plague + Relevant City + Moses = +whatever (1 or 2 I'm thinking)
Moses and Aaron can bombard the Plagues.
Moses can one-way attack any Plague.

This would save on legend space, especially if you used a graphical way to match Plagues with a city (or cities). And also, it would show story-wise that Moses could both 'start' the plague and 'end' it (with the bombard).

Or you don't have to do bonuses at all, but just make the Plagues an attack vector, like so:
Moses or Aaron -> any Plague -> bombards certain cities/areas


I've one other thing to comment on, and that's the 4-symbol bonus for +3. It's semi-good for story, but needlessly confusing for players I think. They need to match 4 symbols for 1 bonus; these symbols are not re-used in other bonuses. Normally, such a bonus would require only 1 unifying symbol. Is it possible to relegate those 4 symbols to just flavor on the map, maybe as text... and use 1 symbol to designate the bonus?


Anyway, best of luck and I'm avidly following your progress.

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Re: Exodus V2.7, pg9 Need feedback!

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:39 pm

Thank you Marshall for your feedback, this was what i am looking for!! ;)

I will respond later after I take a close look at them and make the appropriate changes to the map. So as both you and natty have mentioned the legend will get smaller by using color codes to denote what bonuses are what. I will also be working on naming the bonuses (which should be fun!).

Edit: Ok marshall, I love this idea

Back to the Plagues... maybe, connect them with Moses directly? Say like this:
Hold Plague = -1
Hold Plague + Relevant City = 0
Hold Plague + Relevant City + Moses = +whatever (1 or 2 I'm thinking)
Moses and Aaron can bombard the Plagues.


so I will go with it.

I'm think of just listing the pyramids and plagues with the bonus name such as 'Death' (the first set of plagues and pyramids), and shuffling the legend around a little.
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Re: Exodus V2.7, pg9 Need feedback!

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:02 pm

Ok, here is the new update for your enjoyment!!

Changes made:

- Too many I can't remember :)

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Re: Exodus V2.8, pg9 New bonuses in legend!

Postby natty dread on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:07 pm

Looks nice!

About the legend, where it says "Hold 1 plague + 1 pyramid". Does this mean any plague + any pyramid or do they need to be of matching colours?

And I don't see a bonus for Migdol & Hor... IMO you could group them together with Sinai. They're all mountains, right? Sinai could still have the +1 auto, but if you hold Sinai + Hor & Migdol you'd get an extra +2 troops. Or maybe Migdol + Sinai = +1, and Hor + Sinai = +1.
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Re: Exodus V2.8, pg9 New bonuses in legend!

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:00 pm

natty_dread wrote:Looks nice!


Thank you!

About the legend, where it says "Hold 1 plague + 1 pyramid". Does this mean any plague + any pyramid or do they need to be of matching colours?


Should it be the same color? Maybe it should.

And I don't see a bonus for Migdol & Hor... IMO you could group them together with Sinai. They're all mountains, right? Sinai could still have the +1 auto, but if you hold Sinai + Hor & Migdol you'd get an extra +2 troops. Or maybe Migdol + Sinai = +1, and Hor + Sinai = +1.


I'll think on this one.
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Re: Exodus V2.8, pg9 New bonuses in legend!

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:07 pm

I'm really liking the way that this map is looking.

I think eventually the instructions in the legend can be trimmed to use fewer words and take up less space, but no biggie right now.

Now that the bonuses are starting to solidify, the values might need some tweaking in the near future... or maybe not, I'll take a look.

The Appointment with Pharaoh bonus (nice name) is slick how you used the color to denote the bonus, but it took me a little while to make the connection. Is it possible to name the three regions, maybe in tiny letters or parantheses?

I love what you did with the Golden Calf and the 10 Commandments.

Really nice work! =D>
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Re: Exodus V2.8, pg9 New bonuses in legend!

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:30 pm

MarshalNey wrote:I'm really liking the way that this map is looking.


Thanks, I'm starting to like it more myself!

MarshalNey wrote:I think eventually the instructions in the legend can be trimmed to use fewer words and take up less space, but no biggie right now.


Yes, it could but right now I'm making sure that the instructions are very clear, so I am still working on making it clear while using few words.

MarshalNey wrote:Now that the bonuses are starting to solidify, the values might need some tweaking in the near future... or maybe not, I'll take a look.


I've been thinking the same thing. I am currently working on this as well.

MarshalNey wrote:The Appointment with Pharaoh bonus (nice name) is slick how you used the color to denote the bonus, but it took me a little while to make the connection. Is it possible to name the three regions, maybe in tiny letters or parantheses?


Thank you, it WAS your idea!! ;) and done :D

MarshalNey wrote:I love what you did with the Golden Calf and the 10 Commandments.


Thanks, I had to break that up a bit, and I added a bonus for holding all 3 mountains (coming on my next update!)

MarshalNey wrote:Really nice work! =D>


Thank you, this is a labor of love so to speak :lol:
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Re: Exodus V2.8, pg9 New bonuses in legend!

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:28 pm

Here is Version 2.9 with the changes marshal mentioned along with adding in a bonus for holding Migdol, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Hor. I also added in that you have to hold the same color plague and pyramid to get the bonus.

Added in army numbers back in so we can discuss the starting positions so to make it fair and balanced.

Here it is the latest version (hope you like it)!:
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:29 pm

Is this meant to be open deployment or a conquest map at the moment?
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:42 pm

MarshalNey wrote:Is this meant to be open deployment or a conquest map at the moment?


Right now I'm wanting it as a conquest map which works with the theme. My trouble is working out the starting positions so that everyone has a fair and balanced chance. I have put the army numbers in spots I think would work :-k , but don't know if it'll wok.
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby iancanton on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:37 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I have put the army numbers in spots I think would work :-k , but don't know if it'll wok.

out of the frying pan, eh?

u'll need at least 10 neutral troops between each of the starting points so that, in quads, u're safe from being killed before u've had ur first turn. the question is, can u put in these neutrals without ruining the map? with this in mind, adjusting israel's journey so that there are at least 2 neutral regions between starting points will be essential.

ian. :)
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:08 pm

iancanton wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I have put the army numbers in spots I think would work :-k , but don't know if it'll wok.

out of the frying pan, eh?

u'll need at least 10 neutral troops between each of the starting points so that, in quads, u're safe from being killed before u've had ur first turn. the question is, can u put in these neutrals without ruining the map? with this in mind, adjusting israel's journey so that there are at least 2 neutral regions between starting points will be essential.

ian. :)


:lol: But you must have ESP ian!! :shock: As you can see from my placements, I have already have a minimum of 2 territories separating each starting point for the most part. Now if you look at Rithmah, Etham and Rissah, I think that they are too close to the larger bonuses and therefore would have an advantage. At the same time it could be beneficial to the other players to have these three attempt to take those bonuses. So should I bring these three starting positions closer to the center or just shuffle them around so that there is 3 or 4 territories they have to go through to even get those bonuses.

While thinking about this, should I have the minimum deployable armies set at 2 or three? I'm thinking 3 if I have the 10 neutral on each territory between each starting position. 2 if I start those with 8 neutral. :-k
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby iancanton on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:17 am

isaiah40 wrote:I have already have a minimum of 2 territories separating each starting point for the most part. Now if you look at Rithmah, Etham and Rissah, I think that they are too close to the larger bonuses and therefore would have an advantage. At the same time it could be beneficial to the other players to have these three attempt to take those bonuses. So should I bring these three starting positions closer to the center or just shuffle them around so that there is 3 or 4 territories they have to go through to even get those bonuses.

i was thinking more of mattanah and hashmonah. if u have only 1 region separating them, then u need 10 neutrals on that region, which becomes a roadblock if one of these cities isn't used, for example in 3-player.

isaiah40 wrote:While thinking about this, should I have the minimum deployable armies set at 2 or three? I'm thinking 3 if I have the 10 neutral on each territory between each starting position. 2 if I start those with 8 neutral. :-k

3 i think. 2 can make for a very slow game.

u'll need to draw the road junctions more clearly. can zered attack aroer? the angle of the junction suggests not, yet there's nothing blocking the way.

ian. :)
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:16 am

You have a lot of bonuses here and I really like how you've reordered the plagues and pyramids. Much better... I think I have a renewed interest in the map.

The +1 for any pyramid or city bonus seems like it interferes with the plague/pyramid dynamic too much. First I gotta remember the plague bonus and then I gotta remember there's the +1 for any pyramid or city to interfere with it all? Make it +1 for any two cities and drop the pyramids from that side.

And I wonder if you could do some sort of Egyptian hieroglyphic thing of Moses and Aaron at Pharaoh's court in the top sea region.... then just shift the title over.
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:36 am

Industrial Helix wrote:You have a lot of bonuses here and I really like how you've reordered the plagues and pyramids. Much better... I think I have a renewed interest in the map.


Thank you!! Hope you can poke your nose in here a few more times ;)

The +1 for any pyramid or city bonus seems like it interferes with the plague/pyramid dynamic too much. First I gotta remember the plague bonus and then I gotta remember there's the +1 for any pyramid or city to interfere with it all? Make it +1 for any two cities and drop the pyramids from that side.


It shouldn't interfere with it both pillars can bombard all the pyramids, so I'm figuring that it may be hard to hold the plague, pyramid, moses bonus, but not the any 2 bonus. I may increase the plague, pyramid, moses bonus to +2, or have an +1 auto-deploy on Moses and Aaron. Thoughts??

And I wonder if you could do some sort of Egyptian hieroglyphic thing of Moses and Aaron at Pharaoh's court in the top sea region.... then just shift the title over.


Now I love this idea!! Thanks, I'll do some searching for one and put it up there!!
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:40 am

+1 autodeploy on Moses, I don't know, Moses is already quite powerful - you'll get +3 if you hold it with pharaoh & aaron, and add to that the pyramid/plague bonus...

However I wonder if this map could do with an objective... like - for example - holding moses, 10 commandments & ark of covenant... :-k
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:20 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
IndustrialHelix wrote:The +1 for any pyramid or city bonus seems like it interferes with the plague/pyramid dynamic too much. First I gotta remember the plague bonus and then I gotta remember there's the +1 for any pyramid or city to interfere with it all? Make it +1 for any two cities and drop the pyramids from that side.


It shouldn't interfere with it both pillars can bombard all the pyramids, so I'm figuring that it may be hard to hold the plague, pyramid, moses bonus, but not the any 2 bonus. I may increase the plague, pyramid, moses bonus to +2, or have an +1 auto-deploy on Moses and Aaron. Thoughts??


Actually, I see what Helix is saying here, and I suppose it does overload the pyramids a bit to have two separate build-a-bonuses in play. Plus it would greatly simplify things to just have the Cities be +1 for any 2 (no City/Pyramid combo). It would also make the Plagues more of a factor if the only way you could get a bonus out of a Pyramid would be to hold one- and thematically, it's more centered on the Israelites' story, since getting bonuses for Egyptian cities alone would imply Egyptian power, while plaguing them would imply Israelite freedom.

What I propose, would be to drop the Pyramids from the +1 for any 2 bonus, and then increase the Plague + matching Pyramid bonus from +0 to +1, and the Moses "kicker" bonus to +2.

natty_dread wrote:However I wonder if this map could do with an objective... like - for example - holding moses, 10 commandments & ark of covenant...


... this could work... but don't add it in if it overloads the map legend. I like it, though.
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:50 pm

MarshalNey wrote:What I propose, would be to drop the Pyramids from the +1 for any 2 bonus, and then increase the Plague + matching Pyramid bonus from +0 to +1, and the Moses "kicker" bonus to +2.


This I can do very easily. I'll get a new update probably tomorrow sometime.
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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:17 am

Okay so here is the new update with the changes Marshall IH and ian suggested.

I also moved a couple of the starting positions around for a more even and fair start.

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Re: Exodus V2.9, pg10 Need to discuss starting positions!

Postby iancanton on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:16 pm

the roads are now much better, but the northwest corner still needs to be done in the same fashion. can u show the neutral 5s on aroer, hashmonah and others to make the initial situation easier to visualise?

ian. :)
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