Conquer Club

tobinov wrote:

Bruceswar wrote:

tobinov wrote:When will the map be available to play?

Soon as lack uploads the files. Should be this week sometime, I assume.

OK - I'll admit that I'm impatient: how long can it take to upload files, eh?!

Ask DiM, he's watching the clock too.

ender516 wrote:

tobinov wrote:

Bruceswar wrote:

tobinov wrote:When will the map be available to play?

Soon as lack uploads the files. Should be this week sometime, I assume.

OK - I'll admit that I'm impatient: how long can it take to upload files, eh?!

Ask DiM, he's watching the clock too.

It's available as of today!

OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.

ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.

You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.

Gilligan wrote:

ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.

You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.

Yeah it appears that the autodeploy is working but not mentioned in the legend. I will fix that ASAP.

OK here are the new files.

Small Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3small.jpg


Large Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3large.jpg


Revised XML:

Gilligan wrote:

ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.

You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.

Just about to post those same things! Thanks for the quick fix, ironsij, though perhaps you should consider lowering Arsenal's neutrals to 2, as I don't really see it coming into play too much otherwise (most players would rather spend troops killing opposing troops rather than neutrals, and the +1 auto-deploy isn't much compensation).

-Sully

in 1vs1 right now the gameplay is very unbalanced
northern towns and coal city are way too easy to take and hold for the first player
they must both be coded as starting position so no one can have 2 or 3 of them at drop

edit
and andalusia

Oh, dear. It's hard to believe no one picked up on that earlier. Zones with 3 regions are routinely broken up by neutrals or starting positions. I guess someone should have run this through the calculator.

EDIT: Okay, I have run this through MrBenn's calculator. If three starting positions of 3 regions each are created, spread over the those zones (Andalusia, Northern Towns, and Coal Valley), then the chance of dropping a bonus on one of those is eliminated. However, it does mean that in the 1v1 case, the two players each start with 24 regions. 70 minus 1 (for Arsenal) minus the nine regions in starting positions makes 60 basic regions in the pot, but with each player getting one starting position containing 3 regions, the 3 regions in the unused starting position also go into the pot, for a total of 63 to be divided three ways (red, green and neutral). So red gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), green gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 63/3 (1 + 21 = 22). 24 + 24 + 22 = 70, so all present and accounted for.

Having players start with 24 regions is bad. The first player gets eight troops to deploy, and if he takes one from the second player, that player only gets seven troops on his turn.

This can be corrected by making one region in each starting position an underlying neutral, so that in a 1v1, when the third starting position is not given to either player, only two regions go into the pot for distribution, with the underlying neutral going directly to the neutral player. With 62 in the pot, red gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), green gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 1 (underlying neutral) plus 62/3 (20) plus the remainder of the pot (62 modulo 3 = 2) (1 + 1 + 20 + 2 = 24). 23 + 23 + 24 = 70.

In a 1v1v1 game, everyone gets one starting position consisting of three regions, and 60/3 or 20 from the pot. Arsenal remains the sole neutral. With four or more players, the starting positions are ignored, and the board always start with at least Arsenal and the (fixed) underlying neutrals as neutrals. The remaining 66 regions are split as evenly as possible, with the leftovers also becoming neutrals. So in a 4 player game, each player starts with 16 regions, and two more random neutrals join the fixed four. In a 5 player game, each starts with 13, and one random neutral emerges. In a 6 player game, each starts with 11 regions, and no extra neutral is needed. In a 7 player game, each starts with 9, and three extra neutrals appear. Finally in an 8 player game, each starts with 8 and two extra neutrals appear.

This seems like a clean solution. Going forward with this, a decision is required regarding which regions will be the underlying neutrals and how the starting positions will be grouped (one region from each of the small zones should go into each position: are some more favourable than others? what is a fair mix?)

ender516 wrote:Oh, dear. It's hard to believe no one picked up on that earlier. Zones with 3 regions are routinely broken up by neutrals or starting positions. I guess someone should have run this through the calculator.

EDIT: Okay, I have run this through MrBenn's calculator. If three starting positions of 3 regions each are created, spread over the those zones (Andalusia, Northern Towns, and Coal Valley), then the chance of dropping a bonus on one of those is eliminated. However, it does mean that in the 1v1 case, the two players each start with 24 regions. 70 minus 1 (for Arsenal) minus the nine regions in starting positions makes 60 basic regions in the pot, but with each player getting one starting position containing 3 regions, the 3 regions in the unused starting position also go into the pot, for a total of 63 to be divided three ways (red, green and neutral). So red gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), green gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 63/3 (1 + 21 = 22). 24 + 24 + 22 = 70, so all present and accounted for.

Having players start with 24 regions is bad. The first player gets eight troops to deploy, and if he takes one from the second player, that player only gets seven troops on his turn.

This can be corrected by making one region in each starting position an underlying neutral, so that in a 1v1, when the third starting position is not given to either player, only two regions go into the pot for distribution, with the underlying neutral going directly to the neutral player. With 62 in the pot, red gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), green gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 1 (underlying neutral) plus 62/3 (20) plus the remainder of the pot (62 modulo 3 = 2) (1 + 1 + 20 + 2 = 24). 23 + 23 + 24 = 70.

In a 1v1v1 game, everyone gets one starting position consisting of three regions, and 60/3 or 20 from the pot. Arsenal remains the sole neutral. With four or more players, the starting positions are ignored, and the board always start with at least Arsenal and the (fixed) underlying neutrals as neutrals. The remaining 66 regions are split as evenly as possible, with the leftovers also becoming neutrals. So in a 4 player game, each player starts with 16 regions, and two more random neutrals join the fixed four. In a 5 player game, each starts with 13, and one random neutral emerges. In a 6 player game, each starts with 11 regions, and no extra neutral is needed. In a 7 player game, each starts with 9, and three extra neutrals appear. Finally in an 8 player game, each starts with 8 and two extra neutrals appear.

This seems like a clean solution. Going forward with this, a decision is required regarding which regions will be the underlying neutrals and how the starting positions will be grouped (one region from each of the small zones should go into each position: are some more favourable than others? what is a fair mix?)

OK, I get what you're saying. All the numbers made my head spin a little.

I'm open for suggestions on what I need to do to fix this. I made need some assistance with how to code everything in the XML.

Also what Sully said about making Arsenal a Neutral 2 instead of 3. I'm fine with that, but does anyone else have any thoughts about it?

Neutral 2's are nice because they allow the region to get into the game a little faster, or so I think, from my most recent experience with some neutrals on the Fractured China map.


--Andy

I was checking the new files to send them to lackattack when i noticed there're few things to fix:

Big Version: Move Vandruff coords a bit to left (or the name to right) , see the spoiler for reference

show: big version

Small version: St. Ambros a bit to left, Vandruff a bit to left, Duck creek a bit to left (888 overlap Devil's glen), Green valley a bit to left and probably also southpark could be moved a bit to left. Finally elmore could go a bit to left.

show: small version

Be careful when you change coords (always doble heck if you're going to change the correct value before doing it) because it's easy to mess up your xml file

Nobodies

Sometimes drops are unfair. There's a +1 for the throne in Siege!, a +2 for the bowler in cricket, etc... I kind of like the map as it plays now. Starting with 23 regions in a 2/3-man game, 17 in a 4-man, 14 in a 5-man, 11 in a 6-man... it works. Adding a bunch of neutrals will make this map less fair due to region count.

Game 9761592

Why do I not get a bonus for arsenal? How do you get the bonus?

It's an auto-deploy. ironsij fixed it for the next version.

-Sully

Game 976041
It's acting strange on troops due count; Opponent holds "Eastern" so should get +2, I hold "Arsenal" so should get +1, BUT I'm getting no extra & he's getting +3.
Help! Cheers!

Lord+Master wrote:Game 976041
It's acting strange on troops due count; Opponent holds "Eastern" so should get +2, I hold "Arsenal" so should get +1, BUT I'm getting no extra & he's getting +3.
Help! Cheers!

You're right the bonus of Eastern Towns is wrong. ironsij0287 could you please fix also this?
Thanks

That was actually Game 9760411. The one listed by Lord+Master is about four years old.

Version 7.3.3

Small Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3small.jpg


Large Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3large.jpg


Revised XML:
download/file.php?id=271

Fixes in this version.

-Fixed legend to show that Arsenal is a +1 Autodeploy
-Fixed XML so Arsenal starts game as neutral 2
-Fixed XML so Eastern Towns is correctly worth 2 troops instead of 3
-Fixed XML number coordinates where "888" was not properly aligned
-Added missing bridge between Sunset and Big Island

Two things:

1. Eastern Towns could stand to be increased to +3, with 3 borders and 5 territories - certainly harder to nab in comparison to Northern Towns.
2. The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.

-Sully

Victor Sullivan wrote:[*]The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.
-Sully

Was just coming in to say the same thing. Though I actually assumed it was an XML mistake and that there wasn't supposed to be a bridge at all. Might play more interestingly without one because it splits that bonus. Something to consider.

Aside from that, I love this map. Up there with Vancouver and Charleston as really great city maps.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Two things:

1. Eastern Towns could stand to be increased to +3, with 3 borders and 5 territories - certainly harder to nab in comparison to Northern Towns.
2. The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.

-Sully

Holy crap, I completely left off a bridge!

There I added it to my latest map.

I'm going to send the files to lackattack in any case, in this way the map will play correctly (bonus and autodeploy)

But must be said you added the bridge in the wrong way, in fact the river can't go in two directions in the same time!
Fix it when you can.

Nobodies

thenobodies80 wrote:I'm going to send the files to lackattack in any case, in this way the map will play correctly (bonus and autodeploy)

But must be said you added the bridge in the wrong way, in fact the river can't go in two directions in the same time!
Fix it when you can.

Nobodies