Conquer Club

Love the Map. . .really, really well done!!!

I have not read the entire thread here, only the last page, so this one idea of mine may have been brought up.

There seems to be a concern about China/Japan, and even Oceana gaining steam quickly. What if you divide the Russian Empire into an East and a West by the Ural mountains? A small Eastern Russia bonus might help keep China and/or Japan in check -- right now there is not a high premium on those border areas in Eastern Russia.

Thanks for all the hard work on this map. It is a new favorite of the group I often play with.

I'm not sure there is a perfect answer. Depending on the number of players, freestyle v. sequential, etc. the equation is going to change. I think the fact that everyone has a different reaction to this board tends to indicate that the map is pretty well made; if there was an obvious flaw everyone would most likely spot it and comment on the same thing. It is probably a matter of players learning the board. Just like in the classic board, there are pros and cons to every approach, Australia, Africa, NA, SA. Well done.

vonunruh wrote:the fact that everyone has a different reaction to this board tends to indicate that the map is pretty well made; if there was an obvious flaw everyone would most likely spot it and comment on the same thing.

Thanks for that vonunruh; it's about how I'm feeling.

I am still thinking about pulling the flag from Rhodesia - it doesn't make sense that it can be bombarded from sea, and it would both make the british empire and the african regions more attractive. It'd probably mean dropping the Brit empire bonus down to +5.

thoughts?

oaktown wrote:I am still thinking about pulling the flag from Rhodesia - it doesn't make sense that it can be bombarded from sea, and it would both make the British empire and the African regions more attractive. It'd probably mean dropping the Brit empire bonus down to +5.

I agree as I never saw some one getting Brit empire bonus and also did wipe out some players out of Africa already 3 times by bombing

oaktown wrote:

vonunruh wrote:the fact that everyone has a different reaction to this board tends to indicate that the map is pretty well made; if there was an obvious flaw everyone would most likely spot it and comment on the same thing.

Thanks for that vonunruh; it's about how I'm feeling.

I am still thinking about pulling the flag from Rhodesia - it doesn't make sense that it can be bombarded from sea, and it would both make the british empire and the african regions more attractive. It'd probably mean dropping the Brit empire bonus down to +5.

thoughts?

Having read the comments on this therad, and played a few games I'm coming round to your way of thinking. I've gained Asia in a game and am by no means guaranteed a win Game 4445258. Actually this game shows quite a good idea of the distribution of power if not too many people are attacking. Note the 3 biggest armies are in the East - the West is impoverished. Of course that doesn't mean they're going to lose . Africa seems to be useless. I'm just using this game as an example as I think it represents the map dynamics reasonably well.

Letting Australia and New Zealand fall under English rule again might help, opening up more bombardment routes. This would seem excessive though, and make it very hard to control those bonuses. Still, only the Netherlands, France and England have any reason to be there due to the bonuses, perhaps China could be split up as well under spheres of influence to include the Germans http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/Spheres_of_influence.png.The map does seem to grant far more bonuses to the west already though, Russia doesn't need splitting as it is vulnerable in the west and the other eastern bonuses are nowhere near the combined empires of the western ones.

I think this map is beautifully complex and balanced, even though I'm only halfway through my first game on it. It should be kept as is, perhaps a couple more European territories in the east if the balance is bad.

Read through some of the updates. I like the idea of splitting up Russia to East and West Russia to add another bonus. Also, starting the neutral on the boat at 2 units and then resetting to 4 units if someone takes it seems like a good idea. In team games it can be used as a 1 time break point on aussie. In escalating games the difference between 2 and 4 is nothing. And stale mate games are worthless for deciding if a map has a bonus structure problem, you need to use real games that generally end before round 20.

The neutral starting at 2 and after first attack resets to 4 seems a good idea to try out on the map. Sounds like an easy XML change too. The russia bonus idea, might not be worth doing but I like the idea.

-js-

JustCallMeStupid wrote:The neutral starting at 2 and after first attack resets to 4 seems a good idea to try out on the map. Sounds like an easy XML change too. The russia bonus idea, might not be worth doing but I like the idea.

This is not a feature that the site allows... down the road if an XML update goes through we can revisit this.

I really don't like the idea of splitting up Russia... nor the did Czars.

MAybe I can encourage lack to do an XML update? I doubt it would be soon though.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:MAybe I can encourage lack to do an XML update?

… hmm
YES!

.44

AndyDufresne wrote:MAybe I can encourage lack to do an XML update? I doubt it would be soon though.

Well, Widowmakers has had a map waiting on this XML update for months, so he'd be even more thrilled than I. I'm happy with leaving this map in BETA if we think that such an update may come along in the not-so-terribly-distant future.

I finished a few more games, and I have changed my mind about this board. Doesn't really work. I play mostly 6-8 player games, and the European bonuses are just too hard to get/hold...everyone is fighting over them while 1 or 2 players with the right drop take over the east. Don't know what the answer is but I have no desire to play this board again as presently designed.

vonunruh wrote:European bonuses are just too hard to get/hold...everyone is fighting over them while 1 or 2 players with the right drop take over the east.

Call me biased, but I don't find the map to be terribly far off. But I do recognize that a lucky drop in the east can be pretty devastating Here's what I'm leaning toward doing...

1. Removing the british flag from Rhodesia (which is land-locked anyway) and putting it in Canton to represent Hong Kong. This doesn't add any borders to China as Canton is already a border territory, but it does keep that player honest when expanding.

2. Add two additional territories to each starting position; the 15 territories across China, Japan, and Oceania that are not flagged (let's keep those random) and Siam (to round it out to 16) could be assigned as start positions to reduce the odds of a player dropping most/all of a region. In a four or eight player game those regions would be completely split up just as Europe is now.

Its a great map one bug though in coding and thats Italy cant attack Germany, only Austria-Hungary.

Please fix.

LFAW wrote:Its a great map one bug though in coding and thats Italy cant attack Germany, only Austria-Hungary.

Please fix.

There are impassable mountains between the two territories... the updated image (which I have sent to the higher-ups but has yet to be loaded) improves the visibility of this.

I'm relatively new to CC, but I've played a fair number of maps and this one has grown to be my favorite, and I play it religiously even though it's still in beta. The empires and the concept of naval superiority add a whole new dimension to the map.

I only play two-player games though, so my input will only apply to when this game is played with two players, but I also usually play this map with Fog of War enabled.

I've only read a few comments in this thread, but here are some of my thoughts (more like observations):

-It's very easy to take and hold Japan if at least two of your armies start there, especially if Amur, Manchuria, and/or Shanghai are held by neutral armies.

-Europe can be very hotly contested between players who have experience with the map, since they know that if they try to take control of a European power's empire and the enemy knows that they've taken it and still hold at least one European power, then that power can take Naval Superiority and bombard all their 1-army colonies. Thus, it becomes a priority to deny the enemy access to Naval Superiority before attempting to complete an empire. Once the enemy is out of Europe, taking the rest of Europe and gaining the +8 bonus could be very easy, depending on the distribution of neutral armies and the enemy's activities elsewhere in the world (e.g. if you're also busy keeping them from taking Japan or China, which can't be bombarded).

-Given the importance of Europe, a player taking the entirety of the region is a fairly common occurrence given its size. Russia on the other hand I have never seen taken, because it simply does not hold anywhere near the same strategic importance - certainly, resources spent taking Russia almost universally would be better spent taking Europe.

Caesius wrote:I'm relatively new to CC, but I've played a fair number of maps and this one has grown to be my favorite, and I play it religiously even though it's still in beta. The empires and the concept of naval superiority add a whole new dimension to the map.

I only play two-player games though, so my input will only apply to when this game is played with two players, but I also usually play this map with Fog of War enabled.

I've only read a few comments in this thread, but here are some of my thoughts (more like observations):

-It's very easy to take and hold Japan if at least two of your armies start there, especially if Amur, Manchuria, and/or Shanghai are held by neutral armies.

-Europe can be very hotly contested between players who have experience with the map, since they know that if they try to take control of a European power's empire and the enemy knows that they've taken it and still hold at least one European power, then that power can take Naval Superiority and bombard all their 1-army colonies. Thus, it becomes a priority to deny the enemy access to Naval Superiority before attempting to complete an empire. Once the enemy is out of Europe, taking the rest of Europe and gaining the +8 bonus could be very easy, depending on the distribution of neutral armies and the enemy's activities elsewhere in the world (e.g. if you're also busy keeping them from taking Japan or China, which can't be bombarded).

-Given the importance of Europe, a player taking the entirety of the region is a fairly common occurrence given its size. Russia on the other hand I have never seen taken, because it simply does not hold anywhere near the same strategic importance - certainly, resources spent taking Russia almost universally would be better spent taking Europe.

All of which shows the maps depth and interest. Thank you Mr. Map Maker!!

XML: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... sphere.xml


Alright, I've taken everything in and made all kinds of changes.

• Rhodesia is no longer a part of the UK Empire, and as such can no longer be bombarded by a ship... which never made sense anyway.

• Shanghai is now a part of the UK Empire, representing Hong Kong, and is can be bombarded by the ship. This won't make the UK Empire any easier to hold (sorry brits), but the Chinese Empire can now be broken remotely. I think this is a key change.

• Some army coordinates have had to move: Rhodesia's count will appear where the flag was, and Canton has moved over to the left to make space for the flag.

• 16 territories have been added to the starting positions: the four Japan territories, the China and Oceania territories that aren't displaying a flag, and Siam (because I had to have 16). Each of the eight starting positions now starts with two of these territories in addition to a European territory. No start has more than territory in China, Japan, or Oceania, and I tried to get clever with the combinations: UK and Australia are joined, Philippines and Spain, etc. If you're curious as to how they're broken down, they're at the top of the code...

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
   <title>Hemisphere</title>
   <smallwidth>630</smallwidth>
   <smallheight>600</smallheight>
   <largewidth>840</largewidth>
   <largeheight>800</largeheight>
   <filetype>jpg</filetype>

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Great Britain</territory>
      <territory>Manchuria</territory>
      <territory>Australia</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Germany</territory>
      <territory>Peking</territory>
      <territory>New Guinea</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Netherlands</territory>
      <territory>Shanghai</territory>
      <territory>New Zealand</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Austria-Hungary</territory>
      <territory>Japan</territory>
      <territory>Borneo</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Italy</territory>
      <territory>Karafuto</territory>
      <territory>Siam</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>France</territory>
      <territory>Taiwan</territory>
      <territory>Sinkiang</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Portugal</territory>
      <territory>Korea</territory>
      <territory>Tibet</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Spain</territory>
      <territory>Philippine Islands</territory>
      <territory>Mongolia</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

   <continent>
      <name>Europe</name>
      <bonus>8</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Iceland</territory>
         <territory>Great Britain</territory>
         <territory>Norway</territory>
         <territory>Sweden</territory>
         <territory>Germany</territory>
         <territory>Netherlands</territory>
         <territory>Austria-Hungary</territory>
         <territory>Balkans</territory>
         <territory>Italy</territory>
         <territory>France</territory>
         <territory>Spain</territory>
         <territory>Portugal</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Northern Africa</name>
      <bonus>4</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Morocco</territory>
         <territory>French West Africa</territory>
         <territory>Tripoli</territory>
         <territory>Liberia</territory>
         <territory>Nigeria</territory>
         <territory>Egypt and Sudan</territory>
         </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Horn of Africa</name>
      <bonus>1</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Somaliland</territory>   
         <territory>Abyssinia</territory>
         <territory>British East Africa</territory>
         </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Southern Africa</name>
      <bonus>5</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Cameroon</territory>
         <territory>Congo</territory>
         <territory>German East Africa</territory>
         <territory>German South West Africa</territory>
         <territory>Rhodesia</territory>
         <territory>Angola</territory>
         <territory>Madagascar</territory>
         <territory>South Africa</territory>
         <territory>Portuguese East Africa</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Russian Empire</name>
      <bonus>9</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>St. Petersburg</territory>
         <territory>Finland</territory>
         <territory>Vilno</territory>
         <territory>Warsaw</territory>
         <territory>Ukraine</territory>
         <territory>Moscow</territory>
         <territory>Kazan</territory>
         <territory>Caucasus</territory>
         <territory>Turkestan</territory>
         <territory>Omsk</territory>
         <territory>Irkutsk</territory>
         <territory>Amur</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Middle East</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Ottoman Empire</territory>
         <territory>Arabia</territory>
         <territory>Persia</territory>
         <territory>Afghanistan</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Southern Asia</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>India</territory>
         <territory>Nepal</territory>
         <territory>Burma</territory>
         <territory>Siam</territory>
         <territory>Indochina</territory>
      </components>
      
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Chinese Empire</name>
      <bonus>5</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Manchuria</territory>
         <territory>Mongolia</territory>
         <territory>Sinkiang</territory>
         <territory>Peking</territory>
         <territory>Tibet</territory>
         <territory>Shanghai</territory>
         <territory>Canton</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Oceania</name>
      <bonus>4</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Philippine Islands</territory>
         <territory>Borneo</territory>
         <territory>New Guinea</territory>
         <territory>Sumatra</territory>
         <territory>Java</territory>
         <territory>Australia</territory>
         <territory>New Zealand</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
      
   <continent>
      <name>Japanese Empire</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Japan</territory>
         <territory>Korea</territory>
         <territory>Karafuto</territory>
         <territory>Taiwan</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   
   <continent>
      <name>British Empire</name>
      <bonus>6</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Great Britain</territory>
         <territory>Canton</territory>
         <territory>South Africa</territory>
         <territory>Nigeria</territory>
         <territory>India</territory>
         <territory>Egypt and Sudan</territory>
         <territory>British East Africa</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>   
   
   <continent>
      <name>Portuguese Empire</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Portugal</territory>
         <territory>Angola</territory>
         <territory>Portuguese East Africa</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>
   
   <continent>
      <name>French Empire</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>France</territory>
         <territory>Madagascar</territory>
         <territory>Indochina</territory>
         <territory>French West Africa</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>   
   
   <continent>
      <name>German Empire</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Germany</territory>
         <territory>Cameroon</territory>
         <territory>German South West Africa</territory>
         <territory>German East Africa</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>      
   
   <continent>
      <name>Dutch Empire</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Netherlands</territory>
         <territory>Sumatra</territory>
         <territory>Java</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>      

   <continent>
      <name>Italian Empire</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Italy</territory>
         <territory>Tripoli</territory>
         <territory>Somaliland</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>      
   
   <territory>
      <name>Iceland</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Norway</border>
         <border>Great Britain</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>54</smallx>
         <smally>103</smally>
         <largex>41</largex>
         <largey>141</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Great Britain</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Iceland</border>
         <border>France</border>
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>45</smallx>
         <smally>206</smally>
         <largex>63</largex>
         <largey>267</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Norway</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Iceland</border>
         <border>Sweden</border>
         <border>Finland</border>
         <border>St. Petersburg</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>90</smallx>
         <smally>146</smally>
         <largex>123</largex>
         <largey>186</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Sweden</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Norway</border>
         <border>Germany</border>
         <border>Finland</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>114</smallx>
         <smally>162</smally>
         <largex>150</largex>
         <largey>210</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>France</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Great Britain</border>
         <border>Spain</border>
         <border>Netherlands</border>
         <border>Italy</border>
         <border>Germany</border>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>67</smallx>
         <smally>244</smally>
         <largex>90</largex>
         <largey>317</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Spain</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Portugal</border>
         <border>Morocco</border>
         <border>France</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>48</smallx>
         <smally>274</smally>
         <largex>65</largex>
         <largey>356</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Portugal</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Spain</border>
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>13</smallx>
         <smally>266</smally>
         <largex>22</largex>
         <largey>349</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Germany</name>
      <borders>
         <border>France</border>
         <border>Netherlands</border>
         <border>Sweden</border>
         <border>Warsaw</border>
         <border>Austria-Hungary</border>
         <border>Vilno</border>
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>106</smallx>
         <smally>210</smally>
         <largex>142</largex>
         <largey>271</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Austria-Hungary</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Germany</border>
         <border>Warsaw</border>
         <border>Ukraine</border>
         <border>Balkans</border>
         <border>Italy</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>124</smallx>
         <smally>238</smally>
         <largex>168</largex>
         <largey>309</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Italy</name>
      <borders>
         <border>France</border>
         <border>Austria-Hungary</border>
         <border>Tripoli</border>         
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>109</smallx>
         <smally>278</smally>
         <largex>146</largex>
         <largey>361</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Netherlands</name>
      <borders>
         <border>France</border>
         <border>Germany</border>
         <border>Naval Superiority</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>78</smallx>
         <smally>210</smally>
         <largex>105</largex>
         <largey>272</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Balkans</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Austria-Hungary</border>
         <border>Ukraine</border>
         <border>Ottoman Empire</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>140</smallx>
         <smally>261</smally>
         <largex>187</largex>
         <largey>337</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Morocco</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Spain</border>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>54</smallx>
         <smally>306</smally>
         <largex>77</largex>
         <largey>400</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Liberia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>29</smallx>
         <smally>411</smally>
         <largex>39</largex>
         <largey>538</largey>
           </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>French West Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>France</border>
         <border>Tripoli</border>
         <border>Morocco</border>
         <border>Liberia</border>
         <border>Nigeria</border>
         <border>Cameroon</border>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
      </borders>      
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>50</smallx>
         <smally>353</smally>
         <largex>71</largex>
         <largey>463</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Tripoli</name>
      <borders>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
         <border>Italy</border>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>120</smallx>
         <smally>323</smally>
         <largex>162</largex>
         <largey>423</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Nigeria</name>
      <borders>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
         <border>Cameroon</border>
      </borders>   
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>99</smallx>
         <smally>387</smally>
         <largex>135</largex>
         <largey>508</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Egypt and Sudan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Tripoli</border>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
         <border>Abyssinia</border>
         <border>Ottoman Empire</border>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>British East Africa</border>
      </borders>   
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>161</smallx>
         <smally>374</smally>
         <largex>216</largex>
         <largey>491</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Abyssinia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
         <border>Somaliland</border>
         <border>British East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>199</smallx>
         <smally>393</smally>
         <largex>266</largex>
         <largey>517</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Somaliland</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Abyssinia</border>
         <border>British East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>230</smallx>
         <smally>406</smally>
         <largex>308</largex>
         <largey>534</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>British East Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Abyssinia</border>
         <border>Somaliland</border>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>German East Africa</border>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>179</smallx>
         <smally>413</smally>
         <largex>240</largex>
         <largey>543</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Cameroon</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>Nigeria</border>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
      </borders>      
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>89</smallx>
         <smally>427</smally>
         <largex>125</largex>
         <largey>560</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Congo</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Angola</border>
         <border>Cameroon</border>
         <border>French West Africa</border>
         <border>German East Africa</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
         <border>British East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>145</smallx>
         <smally>423</smally>
         <largex>195</largex>
         <largey>557</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Angola</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>German South West Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>      
          <smallx>126</smallx>
         <smally>479</smally>
         <largex>169</largex>
         <largey>632</largey>

      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>German South West Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>South Africa</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>Angola</border>
      </borders>      
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>103</smallx>
         <smally>501</smally>
         <largex>138</largex>
         <largey>661</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>South Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>German South West Africa</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
      </borders>      
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>139</smallx>
         <smally>539</smally>
         <largex>187</largex>
         <largey>713</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Rhodesia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>Angola</border>
         <border>German South West Africa</border>
         <border>South Africa</border>
         <border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
         <border>German East Africa</border>
      </borders>      
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>156</smallx>
         <smally>491</smally>
         <largex>209</largex>
         <largey>648</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Portuguese East Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Madagascar</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>South Africa</border>
         <border>German East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>191</smallx>
         <smally>507</smally>
         <largex>260</largex>
         <largey>667</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Madagascar</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
         <border>German East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>225</smallx>
         <smally>493</smally>
         <largex>301</largex>
         <largey>649</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>German East Africa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Madagascar</border>
         <border>Congo</border>
         <border>Rhodesia</border>
         <border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
         <border>British East Africa</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>171</smallx>
         <smally>440</smally>
         <largex>228</largex>
         <largey>580</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Ottoman Empire</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Balkans</border>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
         <border>Arabia</border>
         <border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>201</smallx>
         <smally>284</smally>
         <largex>270</largex>
         <largey>370</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Arabia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Ottoman Empire</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>223</smallx>
         <smally>342</smally>
         <largex>299</largex>
         <largey>448</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Persia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Ottoman Empire</border>
         <border>Arabia</border>
         <border>Turkestan</border>
         <border>Afghanistan</border>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
         <border>India</border>
         </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>247</smallx>
         <smally>300</smally>
         <largex>330</largex>
         <largey>393</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Afghanistan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>India</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>280</smallx>
         <smally>316</smally>
         <largex>374</largex>
         <largey>413</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Finland</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Norway</border>
         <border>Sweden</border>
         <border>St. Petersburg</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>163</smallx>
         <smally>131</smally>
         <largex>216</largex>
         <largey>167</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>St. Petersburg</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Norway</border>
         <border>Kazan</border>
         <border>Vilno</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>
         <border>Finland</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>198</smallx>
         <smally>154</smally>
         <largex>268</largex>
         <largey>198</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Warsaw</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Vilno</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>
         <border>Ukraine</border>
         <border>Germany</border>
         <border>Austria-Hungary</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>162</smallx>
         <smally>196</smally>
         <largex>219</largex>
         <largey>254</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Vilno</name>
      <borders>
         <border>St. Petersburg</border>
         <border>Warsaw</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>
         <border>Germany</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>177</smallx>
         <smally>178</smally>
         <largex>238</largex>
         <largey>228</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Ukraine</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Warsaw</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>   
         <border>Caucasus</border>
         <border>Austria-Hungary</border>
         <border>Balkans</border>         
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>184</smallx>
         <smally>231</smally>
         <largex>249</largex>
         <largey>300</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Moscow</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Vilno</border>
         <border>Ukraine</border>
         <border>Kazan</border>
         <border>St. Petersburg</border>
         <border>Warsaw</border>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>203</smallx>
         <smally>190</smally>
         <largex>273</largex>
         <largey>246</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Kazan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>St. Petersburg</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>236</smallx>
         <smally>181</smally>
         <largex>321</largex>
         <largey>234</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Caucasus</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Kazan</border>
         <border>Turkestan</border>
         <border>Moscow</border>
         <border>Omsk</border>
         <border>Ukraine</border>
         <border>Ottoman Empire</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>213</smallx>
         <smally>240</smally>
         <largex>284</largex>
         <largey>313</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Turkestan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
         <border>Sinkiang</border>
         <border>Omsk</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>284</smallx>
         <smally>258</smally>
         <largex>381</largex>
         <largey>337</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Omsk</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Irkutsk</border>
         <border>Turkestan</border>
         <border>Caucasus</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>305</smallx>
         <smally>185</smally>
         <largex>412</largex>
         <largey>238</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Amur</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Karafuto</border>
         <border>Irkutsk</border>
         <border>Manchuria</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>501</smallx>
         <smally>162</smally>
         <largex>670</largex>
         <largey>208</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Irkutsk</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Omsk</border>
         <border>Amur</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>422</smallx>
         <smally>122</smally>
         <largex>564</largex>
         <largey>154</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Sinkiang</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Tibet</border>
         <border>Peking</border>
         <border>Mongolia</border>
         <border>Turkestan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>374</smallx>
         <smally>271</smally>
         <largex>503</largex>
         <largey>355</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Tibet</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Sinkiang</border>
         <border>Peking</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>345</smallx>
         <smally>283</smally>
         <largex>461</largex>
         <largey>370</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Mongolia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Sinkiang</border>
         <border>Peking</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>410</smallx>
         <smally>226</smally>
         <largex>547</largex>
         <largey>295</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Peking</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Sinkiang</border>
         <border>Tibet</border>
         <border>Canton</border>
         <border>Shanghai</border>
         <border>Manchuria</border>
         <border>Mongolia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>      
          <smallx>415</smallx>
         <smally>298</smally>
         <largex>554</largex>
         <largey>390</largey>

      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Canton</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Peking</border>
         <border>Shanghai</border>
         <border>Indochina</border>
         <border>Burma</border>
         <border>Philippine Islands</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>      
         <smallx>406</smallx>
         <smally>334</smally>
         <largex>543</largex>
         <largey>437</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Shanghai</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Peking</border>
         <border>Canton</border>
         <border>Taiwan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>446</smallx>
         <smally>308</smally>
         <largex>593</largex>
         <largey>407</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Manchuria</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Amur</border>
         <border>Korea</border>
         <border>Peking</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>475</smallx>
         <smally>231</smally>
         <largex>635</largex>
         <largey>301</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   


   <territory>
      <name>India</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Afghanistan</border>
         <border>Nepal</border>
         <border>Burma</border>
         <border>Persia</border>
      </borders>
                  <coordinates>
         <smallx>327</smallx>
         <smally>355</smally>
         <largex>437</largex>
         <largey>466</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Nepal</name>
      <borders>
         <border>India</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>340</smallx>
         <smally>315</smally>
         <largex>453</largex>
         <largey>414</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Burma</name>
      <borders>
         <border>India</border>
         <border>Siam</border>
         <border>Indochina</border>
         <border>Canton</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>380</smallx>
         <smally>355</smally>
         <largex>508</largex>
         <largey>465</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Siam</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Burma</border>
         <border>Indochina</border>
         <border>Sumatra</border>
         <border>Borneo</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>      
         <smallx>396</smallx>
         <smally>375</smally>
         <largex>529</largex>
         <largey>493</largey>

      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Indochina</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Canton</border>
         <border>Burma</border>
         <border>Siam</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>434</smallx>
         <smally>379</smally>
         <largex>580</largex>
         <largey>498</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Japan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Karafuto</border>
         <border>Korea</border>
         <border>Taiwan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>532</smallx>
         <smally>292</smally>
         <largex>710</largex>
         <largey>381</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Karafuto</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Amur</border>
         <border>Japan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>545</smallx>
         <smally>227</smally>
         <largex>728</largex>
         <largey>294</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Korea</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Manchuria</border>
         <border>Japan</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>493</smallx>
         <smally>281</smally>
         <largex>657</largex>
         <largey>369</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Taiwan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Japan</border>
         <border>Shanghai</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>486</smallx>
         <smally>336</smally>
         <largex>649</largex>
         <largey>442</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>


   <territory>
      <name>Philippine Islands</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Canton</border>
         <border>Borneo</border>
         <border>New Guinea</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>498</smallx>
         <smally>405</smally>
         <largex>661</largex>
         <largey>531</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Borneo</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Philippine Islands</border>
         <border>Sumatra</border>
         <border>Java</border>
         <border>Siam</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>438</smallx>
         <smally>436</smally>
         <largex>584</largex>
         <largey>573</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Sumatra</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Borneo</border>
         <border>Siam</border>
         <border>Java</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>379</smallx>
         <smally>445</smally>
         <largex>506</largex>
         <largey>585</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Java</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Borneo</border>
         <border>Sumatra</border>
         <border>Australia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>432</smallx>
         <smally>484</smally>
         <largex>577</largex>
         <largey>636</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>New Guinea</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Philippine Islands</border>
         <border>Australia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>542</smallx>
         <smally>438</smally>
         <largex>724</largex>
         <largey>579</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>Australia</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Java</border>
         <border>New Guinea</border>
         <border>New Zealand</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>
         <smallx>511</smallx>
         <smally>517</smally>
         <largex>682</largex>
         <largey>682</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>
   <territory>
      <name>New Zealand</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Australia</border>
      </borders>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>580</smallx>
         <smally>541</smally>
         <largex>773</largex>
         <largey>717</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>


   <territory>
      <name>Naval Superiority</name>
      <borders>
      </borders>
       <bombardments>
       <bombardment>Indochina</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Madagascar</bombardment>
         <bombardment>French West Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Canton</bombardment>
         <bombardment>India</bombardment>
         <bombardment>South Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Egypt and Sudan</bombardment>
         <bombardment>British East Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Sumatra</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Java</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Nigeria</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Cameroon</bombardment>
         <bombardment>German South West Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>German East Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Angola</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Portuguese East Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Somaliland</bombardment>         
         <bombardment>Tripoli</bombardment>
        </bombardments>
            <coordinates>   
         <smallx>338</smallx>
         <smally>510</smally>
         <largex>451</largex>
         <largey>672</largey>
      </coordinates>
      <neutral killer="yes">4</neutral>
   </territory>

</map>


Caesius wrote:-It's very easy to take and hold Japan if at least two of your armies start there, especially if Amur, Manchuria, and/or Shanghai are held by neutral armies.

Manchuria, Shanghai, and the Japanese territories have all been coded as starts - none will start neutral in 1v1 games. And as all six of these territories are attributed to different starting positions, the most that one player can start with in a game is four. Hope this solves the problem.

Me likey lots - thanks Oaktown. İt's truly a great map, it gives me certain unholy urges when İ look at the alps - such graphics

oaktown wrote:• Shanghai is now a part of the UK Empire, representing Hong Kong, and is can be bombarded by the ship. This won't make the UK Empire any easier to hold (sorry brits), but the Chinese Empire can now be broken remotely. I think this is a key change.

You mean Canton?

.44

the.killing.44 wrote:

oaktown wrote:• Shanghai is now a part of the UK Empire, representing Hong Kong, and is can be bombarded by the ship. This won't make the UK Empire any easier to hold (sorry brits), but the Chinese Empire can now be broken remotely. I think this is a key change.

You mean Canton?

.44

Yes he means Canton

Good thing it's Canton, as I have nearly 40 armies there in the game of Eastern Hemisphere I'm playing with him. If it's Shanghai I might need to do some heavy duty deployment to make it more than the 3 presently sitting there.

Overall, good changes here Oaktown.

yes, canton... easy to mix up, as all those chinese territories look alike.

(that was way too easy)

oaktown wrote: Each of the eight starting positions now starts with two of these territories in addition to a European territory.

Does this mean games will start with 30~ neutrals?

BaldAdonis wrote:

oaktown wrote: Each of the eight starting positions now starts with two of these territories in addition to a European territory.

Does this mean games will start with 30~ neutrals?

No.

(Ask me why you think it will and I can set you straight.)