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Re: Rorke's Drift [22 07 2011]Version 17 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:33 am

Ok, let me get this straight... from what I read on previous pages...

You mean to make it so that each 3 territories within an ibutho gives you +4 when you hold the king? And if you have 1 less then you get +2 for the 2...

Correct?

Ok, it seems it is. Well, the legend is totally unclear on this. It implies that you get a maximum of +4 from each king.

The bonus scheme for the kings is way too complex. Why have this weird 3/2 mix up, just make it +4 for each 3. Easier to explain, you can fit it in the legend and all.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [22 07 2011]Version 17 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:31 am

It is worded nearly the same as pearl harbour with the aircraft just with a different scale of bonus.

Pearl Harbour-Within any group +3 any 2 aircraft, + 4 any 4 aircraft.
Rorke's Drift-King with any 2 territories + 2, with 3 territories +4 (within the same group).

But I take your point. It would make it a lot easier to read and understand. Will get that changed.

As one of the iButhos only has 2 territs, I will have it as +2 for every 2.

Thanks natty.

Anything else?
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Re: Rorke's Drift [22 07 2011]Version 17 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:49 am

Version 18.
Click image to enlarge.
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Desaturated some colours.
Shaka iButho is slightly larger.
Changed legend for bonuses. Now is should read as it is king with every 2 in same iButho =+2.
This should also decrease the value of reinforcements.

Any other game play things to consider?

Bonuses for holding iButhos.

Mpande - 4 territs - 4 bonus.
Cetshwayo - 15 territs - 14 bonus.
Phunga - 8 territs - 8 bonus
Dabulmanzi - 15 territs - 14 bonus
Shaka - 2 territs - 2 bonus.
Bethelezi - 5 territs - 4 bonus
Ndaba - 12 territs - 12 bonus

This new bonus arrangement is similar to most other maps and should be easier to understand and implement within the xml, but I have my reservations about it.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:16 am

The borders in the building with Hitch, Dalton & Allen are ambiguous. Mainly, that one narrow strip that has no territory label. Is it a part of Hitch, or is it a walk-through thing? ie. can you assault Jones from Dalton, or only through Hitch?
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:19 am

It is the hallway that is part of 593 Jones territ. With such a narrow area at the top, I have been trying to do the same as the bottom but still need to find a good configuration for it.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:15 pm

After changing the bonuses for holding a king and territory within an iButho, I find that it is too weak and throws out the balance of the map completely. This might be just me but I do not like it and hope I do not have to keep it.

Old bonus structure.
Mpande - 4 territs - 4 bonus.
Cetshwayo - 15 territs - 18 bonus.
Phunga - 8 territs - 10 bonus
Dabulmanzi - 15 territs - 18 bonus
Shaka - 2 territs - 2 bonus.
Bethelezi - 5 territs - 6 bonus
Ndaba - 12 territs - 16 bonus

New bonus structure.
Mpande - 4 territs - 4 bonus.
Cetshwayo - 15 territs - 14 bonus.
Phunga - 8 territs - 8 bonus
Dabulmanzi - 15 territs - 14 bonus
Shaka - 2 territs - 2 bonus.
Bethelezi - 5 territs - 4 bonus
Ndaba - 12 territs - 12 bonus

As you can see, 2 of the 7 iButhos keep the same amount if all territs are held with both the old and new versions. I understand that the new version is easier to read and understand but with 3 of the iButhos having an odd number of territs, these become useless with the new version.

I need a way to explain the old version that is easy to read and understand.

The old bonus structure was...
Hold a king and any 2 territs within the same iButho and you get +2
Hold a king and any 3 territs within the same iButho and you get +4

So it would go - hold the king with
2 territs = +2
3 territs = +4
4 territs = +4
5 territs = +6
6 territs = +8
7 territs = +8
8 territs = +10
9 territs = +10
10 territs = +12
11 territs = +12
12 territs = +16
13 territs = +16
14 territs = +18
15 territs = +18
It could read-
King with every 2 territs =+2 (within the same iButho)
King with every 3 territs =+4 (within the same iButho)
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:05 pm

koontz1973 wrote:It is the hallway that is part of 593 Jones territ. With such a narrow area at the top, I have been trying to do the same as the bottom but still need to find a good configuration for it.


if it is the same territory, why not use the same texture in the hallway as you have for Jones? This way there will be no mistaken identity.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:11 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:It is the hallway that is part of 593 Jones territ. With such a narrow area at the top, I have been trying to do the same as the bottom but still need to find a good configuration for it.


if it is the same territory, why not use the same texture in the hallway as you have for Jones? This way there will be no mistaken identity.

That is what I have come down to. Re drawing the whole part of that map to allow it.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011] Pg 1/11 Gameplay question p

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:26 am

Version 19.
Click image to enlarge.
image

    Things changed.
    Top building in Rorke's Drift has changed to stop confusion over the hallway and who can attack who.
    Phunga iButho made slightly larger (no more territs) so as it becomes clearer who can attack Hitch.
    Rorke's Drift courtyard has been moved around to accommodate the new building layout.
    Legend has been moved around and reworded.
    Bonus structure is back to original but should be easy to understand now. Raised it slightly to make it easy to find.
    In Ndaba iButho, added a territ line to Xolani river warrior to stop him attacking Thabo.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:24 am

An interesting map, certainly a period of history I haven't really studied. However, we've got some typoes and other tweaks to do:

- The legend should read as follows:
"Capture and hold the outpost commanders, Chard and Bromhead for 1 turn to win.
Zulu kings control each of their iButhos. Kings receive +3 autodeploy.
A king can bombard up to 3 territories away from his iButho."
...and so on.
- The way the bonuses for kings and iButhos are worded is awkward, but a better way of stating it is failing me at present.
- Why is Shaka not degrading when everyone else is decaying? I realize they are synonyms, but when it comes to map terminology guaranteed there will be people confused. Please make both "decay."
- I get the feeling you could just use a different text style (or background) to denote the British Front Line, since it is designated differently on the map anyway. Naming all 5 when they're already distinguished seems a little redundant.
- Is an iButho denoted by its texture swatch? I figure it is, and I'm split between saying that the swatches in the legend are unnecessary (only one king per swatch), and asking for more explanation.
- And this has likely been asked before, but is it REALLY spelled iButho? I feel like it's an Apple announcement for the butane lighter that will revolutionize cigarette smoking.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:51 am

TaCktiX, thanks.

TaCktiX wrote:An interesting map, certainly a period of history I haven't really studied. However, we've got some typoes and other tweaks to do:

- The legend should read as follows:
"Capture and hold the outpost commanders, Chard and Bromhead for 1 turn to win.
Zulu kings control each of their iButhos. Kings receive +3 autodeploy.
A king can bombard up to 3 territories away from his iButho."
...and so on.
- The way the bonuses for kings and iButhos are worded is awkward, but a better way of stating it is failing me at present.

Wording changes will do. Will get it done today and post it tonight. I wanted the kings to be able to bombard within there ibuthos not into an adjacent one. Will scrap that as it gave them too much power with there autodeploy.


TaCktiX wrote:- Why is Shaka not degrading when everyone else is decaying? I realize they are synonyms, but when it comes to map terminology guaranteed there will be people confused. Please make both "decay."

Shaka being a king, I felt it best he was immune from the decay. Will change the wording.

TaCktiX wrote:- I get the feeling you could just use a different text style (or background) to denote the British Front Line, since it is designated differently on the map anyway. Naming all 5 when they're already distinguished seems a little redundant.

On the map itself, the only way to spot the front line is to see which ones can be attacked. There are actually 6 of them. Naming them or placing a symbol was the two ways to distinguish them. I chose naming them as I did not want to put too many little figures there. Will place them on for tonight to show how it looks.
TaCktiX wrote:- Is an iButho denoted by its texture swatch? I figure it is, and I'm split between saying that the swatches in the legend are unnecessary (only one king per swatch), and asking for more explanation.
- And this has likely been asked before, but is it REALLY spelled iButho? I feel like it's an Apple announcement for the butane lighter that will revolutionize cigarette smoking.

iButho is spelt correctly. Small i, big B. It translates to regiment. You are correct by the swatches denoting the reaches of each kings. By placing more kings on the map makes the word redundent. Will take out the copycats from the legend.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [23 07 2011]Version 18 Pg 1/10 Gameplay

Postby Obrens on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:06 am

Either you are wrong or the bonuses are incredibly stupid. Let's asume they are not:

So it would go - hold the king with
2 territs = +2
3 territs = +4
4 territs = +4
5 territs = +6
6 territs = +8
7 territs = +8
8 territs = +10
9 territs = +10 wrong, it should be 3 x 4 = +12
10 territs = +12
11 territs = +12 +14
12 territs = +16
13 territs = +16
14 territs = +18
15 territs = +18 +20
Maybe you should think of something simpler, because even you can't get you own bonuses right.

It could read-
King with every 2 territs =+2 (within the same iButho)
King with every 3 territs =+4 (within the same iButho)

The way you wrote it, it would give - hold the king with
2 territs = +2
3 territs = +6
4 territs = +8
5 territs = +8
6 territs = +14
7 territs = +14
8 territs = +16
9 territs = +20
10 territs = +22
11 territs = +22
12 territs = +28
13 territs = +28
14 territs = +30
15 territs = +34

The only good way of explaining this I can think of is kinda mathy and geeky, but I don't know any other:
King with 3xN territories within the same iButho = +N troops
King with 3xN+2 territories within the same iButho = +N+2 troops
And then give examples:
2 territs = +2
3 territs = +4
4 territs = +4
5 territs = +6

Or you could make it:
King with exactly 2 territories within the same iButho = +2
King with every 3 territories within the same iButho = +4
Which gives - hold the king with
2 territs = +2
3 territs = +4
4 territs = +4
5 territs = +4
6 territs = +8
7 territs = +8
8 territs = +8
9 territs = +12
10 territs = +12
11 territs = +12
12 territs = +16
13 territs = +16
14 territs = +16
15 territs = +20
This is similar with what you have now. The differences are that you don't get 2 additional troops when holding 5, 8, 11 or 14 territories.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:17 am

Maybe you should think of something simpler, because even you can't get you own bonuses right.


Simple typo on my part. That what happens when you are sleep deprived. :oops: They are correct a few pages back. With your math geek wording, I doubt that would get past the mods any time soon.

King with exactly 2 territories within the same iButho = +2


This is simular to the way it was worded in the first few drafts and people believed it said that you could not get more than 4.

I believe that it is now clear enough (in current version to be posted tonight).
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:36 am

koontz1973 wrote:As you can see, 2 of the 7 iButhos keep the same amount if all territs are held with both the old and new versions. I understand that the new version is easier to read and understand but with 3 of the iButhos having an odd number of territs, these become useless with the new version.


So what, you can't get a bonus from the last territory? It really doesn't matter all that much. What you have now is a needlessly complicated bonus scheme that no one is going to be able to understand unless you list the whole bonus structure from start to finish on the map. Which would still make it needlessly complicated.

Go with the +2 each 2. The last territory of a bonus won't make a difference, but so what - it's still advantageous to take is since it means your enemy needs to take 2 of your territories to reduce your bonus.

Also, having the bonus increase every 2 territories instead of every territory makes it more strategical.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:43 pm

natty_dread wrote:So what, you can't get a bonus from the last territory? It really doesn't matter all that much. What you have now is a needlessly complicated bonus scheme that no one is going to be able to understand unless you list the whole bonus structure from start to finish on the map. Which would still make it needlessly complicated.

Go with the +2 each 2. The last territory of a bonus won't make a difference, but so what - it's still advantageous to take is since it means your enemy needs to take 2 of your territories to reduce your bonus.

Also, having the bonus increase every 2 territories instead of every territory makes it more strategical.

natty, you might be right about the bonus being complicated for some (as it is worded now), but it is so much less complicated than some maps. When I set out how to make this map, I tried to take the elements from maps that I like and try to incorporate them into this one.

Dust bowl gave me the 150 yard line which fits perfectly because of the British rifles.
World 2.1 gave me the routes. I love that map because there is so many ways to attack around the board.
Das Schloss and City Mogul for the auto deploys, even though I do not have them as large.
Age Of Realms 2: Magic and Arms Race for the bonus. I love the way you can go from nothing to +5, +14, +40 odd to +90 and win the game. Even though I still cannot fathom AOR2 bonus system, it is one of the most imaginative bonus structures out. If at some point the mods say to make it like you say then I will (grudgingly). Till then I can hope someone comes up with a way to word it.

Till then, here is the test version for tonight with the cahnges sugested by TaCktiX
Click image to enlarge.
image

Wording as suggested with a couple of changes.

TaCktiX wrote:Capture and hold the outpost commanders, Chard and Bromhead for 1 turn to win.
Changed to:Capture and hold the British Offices, Chard and Bromhead for 1 turn to win.
Fits into the current legend without having to change it. When TaCktiX was put in, it covered half of the territ that is beside it. Need to change Commander to British Officer.
TaCktiX wrote:A king can bombard up to 3 territories away from his iButho.
Changed as well as this is not what I intended. I want only up to 3 within the iButho not outside it. If this can be implemented then great, till then I have said all territs within the iButho. This makes some kings stronger than others so it will have to change.
Hopefully taking out the = sign from the bonus structure, it is easier to read. As I said above, I would love to keep this but if I cannot then I cannot.
Followed all over advice to the letter. The British flag is for the front line soldiers and will be changed to a small figure as soon as I have drawn one. Grouped the legend into blocks across the bottom. Will make nice.
Bonuses - Special instructions - Impassables - Characters.
Will make neat for next version.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Gameplay?

Postby Obrens on Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:26 pm

koontz1973 wrote:TaCktiX wrote:A king can bombard up to 3 territories away from his iButho.
Changed as well as this is not what I intended. I want only up to 3 within the iButho not outside it. If this can be implemented then great, till then I have said all territs within the iButho. This makes some kings stronger than others so it will have to change.

It was clear the way it was written before, and it is doable in XML. You should return it.

King with every 2 territories +2
King with every 3 territories +4
(within the same iButho).

It isn't any clearer than it was before. :roll:
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.19 Pg 1/11 Test image page

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:19 am

Version 20.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Made legend neat.
Changed icon for British officers.
Made icons for front line neat. (the Union Jack looks nice and fits as Schiess was the Natal regular).

Bonus system is still the same. As it has been said in the thread, some people find it confusing but this should go after 1 game if they found it that way. This style of bonus structure has been used before on the AOR series and Pearl Harbour with great effect. On none of these maps does it say that the bonus system is incremental. Sorry guys, not trying to be pig headed about this bonus system but I like it, I am sure most map makers felt the same way when they made there first maps. If anyone can come up with better wording, then I would be more than happy to put it in and give credit to that person with the second medal.

The kings being able to bombard up to 3 territs away in there own iButho stops Bethelezi and Ndaba, Shaka and Dabulamanzi being able to hit each other. Personally, I would be more than happy to remove this completely. Should I keep it in?
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Legend bonus he

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:10 am

Perhaps try a different route with your legend:

  • British Officers [British Officer icon]
    • Conquer and hold Chard and Bromhead for one turn to win.
  • British Front Line [British Front Line icon]
    • Reset to 5 neutrals.
  • Etc.
    • Etc.

For your bonus-phrasing, perhaps just edit the bonus itself. I see no need for there to be an additional bonus at each multiple of three to be honest with you. I think the bonus is high enough without it.

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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Legend bonus he

Postby Sniper08 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:25 am

im not liking so many union jacks on the map just looks like overkill IMO, and the 150 yard line in the legend is bugging me a bit but if you like it no need to re draw it.

i like what you did with the box around the bonuses in the legend it gives a great contrast that previous versions lacked.As far as the wording for the bonus goes im still trying to figure out how you can word it better(i dont think u can imo).

also shaka and jadzia and xop are immune from decay right? it just says shaka in legend.perhaps it can say shaka's ibutho is immune from decay if jadzia and xop are immune.

As far as bombardments go i was never a fan of it in this map some kings had way more power than others with bombards so i think just take it out completely if more ppl agree.
perhaps also you could make it so they can only bomb a territory 2 territorys away and no further if ppl dont like getting rid of bombardments.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Legend bonus he

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:43 am

Thanks Victor Sullivan & Sniper08 for the feedback. Ran this one up flag pole.

British Officers [British Officer icon]

Conquer and hold Chard and Bromhead for one turn to win.

British Front Line [British Front Line icon]

Reset to 5 neutrals.

This I hate. Sorry. ;)

For your bonus-phrasing, perhaps just edit the bonus itself. I see no need for there to be an additional bonus at each multiple of three to be honest with you. I think the bonus is high enough without it.

Looks like it and it is on this version. Still want my one though so if you can come up with wording and it is acceptable to the mods then great.
im not liking so many union jacks on the map just looks like overkill IMO, and the 150 yard line in the legend is bugging me a bit but if you like it no need to re draw it.

There only till I can draw a replacement.
i like what you did with the box around the bonuses in the legend it gives a great contrast that previous versions lacked.As far as the wording for the bonus goes im still trying to figure out how you can word it better(i dont think u can imo).

Box stays, you can thank natty for that, even though mine is only a poor man imitation.
also shaka and jadzia and xop are immune from decay right? it just says shaka in legend.perhaps it can say shaka's ibutho is immune from decay if jadzia and xop are immune.

Only Shake was immune from the decay but if this is also causing problems then I have taken it out for now. He will now decay like Jadzia and Xop. So for that iButho you have 3+2-3=+2. For 3 territs that is OK.
As far as bombardments go i was never a fan of it in this map some kings had way more power than others with bombards so i think just take it out completely if more ppl agree.
perhaps also you could make it so they can only bomb a territory 2 territorys away and no further if ppl dont like getting rid of bombardments.

Never liked them from the start. How can a king (now called chief) bombard that far away. Did not fit the map so into the scrap bin it went.

I have 2 tests for you all to look at. Both have the same legend and I need you to look at that closely to see if it now works. The second test shot is of the final texture for what is supposed to be the dryer land areas. It also has a grey bottom in the riverbed which needs to have work done on it but I have posted it so you can see the final effect before it has been cleaned up.
Does the texture work better?
Does the grey (not cleaned up yet) work? Should look like small pebbles in the end.

Test 1.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Test 2.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Test shot Pg 12

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:50 am

This looks like a fun map. I think the little icons of people look kind of, hm, junky. What about replacing them with simply a item representation? I.E. for the Zulu warriors, their shield, for the British soldiers, a rifle, etc.

I like the look of this map though,


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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Test shot Pg 12

Postby natty dread on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:45 am

With the dry river... you're going to have to think of a way to align the border lines with the river edges. You could try selecting the river area, then stroking the selection, then erasing the lines you don't need.

Also, where you have impassables, put the impassables on top of the river edges, it will look better.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [24 07 2011] V.20 Pg 1/12-Test shot Pg 12

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:09 am

Version 21.
Click image to enlarge.
image


What has changed.
Textures from old to new.
New river bed.
New legend layout.

It has been said that the Union Jacks and little men are odd. If anyone can think of a way to substitute them with either and icon or army circles, let me know.
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Re: Rorke's Drift [26 07 2011] V.21 Pg 1/12 - Gameplay?

Postby theBastard on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:35 am

good progres.

why Williams has another colour as others British front line?
you could change 150 yard line in Dingane, Kwanele, Thabo to copy dry rivers bed.
is needed those light brown line under trees?
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Re: Rorke's Drift [26 07 2011] V.21 Pg 1/12 - Gameplay?

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:37 am

theBastard wrote:good progres.

why Williams has another colour as others British front line?

He is in the court yard, not one of the two buildings.
theBastard wrote:you could change 150 yard line in Dingane, Kwanele, Thabo to copy dry rivers bed.
is needed those light brown line under trees?


The 150 yard line stays as is. Or it becomes 150-195 yard line. The brown elephant grass can be moved over though to become slightly thinker.
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