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Gilgamesh; Coordinates on pg 20

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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Sun May 10, 2009 6:52 pm

gimil wrote:For purly athetical reasons oaktown would you consider redrawing the river at nagar to hug the mountains more. The clump of pale stone across the river from nagar sticks out and isn't paticularly attrative!

Can do. As for the border (and other elements) I said early on that the Ishtar gates are the inspiration for the design of the map. I've been to the pergamon museum twice - most recently right before I started making the berlin map! If you find yourself east of the wall check it out.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Sun May 10, 2009 9:55 pm

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Mountains redrawn a bit, other things touched up. Ho hum.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby Incandenza on Sun May 10, 2009 10:25 pm

I fear that too much has been conceded to the 1v1 bonus drop odds. At this point, why would anyone even attack Ur or Nineveh? They're basically dead terits, and you might as well eliminate them from the map as it currently stands.

In a very real sense, I think we're coming to a point where we're going to need to take a hard look at build-a-bonus, for while it's an interesting gameplay feature, it really fundamentally fucks with 1v1.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Sun May 10, 2009 10:50 pm

Incandenza wrote:I fear that too much has been conceded to the 1v1 bonus drop odds. At this point, why would anyone even attack Ur or Nineveh? They're basically dead terits, and you might as well eliminate them from the map as it currently stands.

Start them as neutral 2s?
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby Incandenza on Sun May 10, 2009 11:17 pm

Even then, I doubt they'll come into play much, especially given the small size of the potential bonus.

Here's the thing, if you're going to have starting neutrals, then taking one kinda needs to have an immediate benefit, otherwise only the crap players will bother. By immediate benefit I mean that the terit itself needs to be a bonus, like the cities in 1914 Europe, or Wellington and Napoleon in Waterloo, etc. And even then, the neutrals will often sit for most (if not all) of the game. I look at a map like Wales, and while I congratulate MrB for coming up with one of the more interesting maps to hit live play in the last six months, I fear that too many games will see the neutral 2's just sitting there, lonely, as the action passes them by.

I was 100% okay with the 5.7% drop chance with one city neutral and two coded as starting positions (and I suppose, if it works like that, two challenges could be similarly coded). Mitigating 1v1 drops is a good and worthy effort, one that I heartily approve of (and I don't even play that many 1v1s), but having 3 cities start neutral (2 of them in out-of-the-way spots that will rarely if ever come into play) seems a bit much for me.

I suppose we should thank wong, as he seems to have ignited a new, more rigorous approach to calculating bonus drop odds that had been somewhat ad-hoc in the past. But I don't want to see this map sacrificed on the altar of fairness for a game setting that is inherently unfair.

And of course, I'm sure everyone will remind me that I said all this when I get back to hectoring cairns about drop bonus percentages in Trafalgar. :lol:
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Sun May 10, 2009 11:53 pm

I was against having a bunch of neutral starts from the start of this conversation, but Wong was extremely persistent. When I have more energy I'll try to attack the problem again and see what I can come up with.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 11, 2009 12:26 am

Heck, you could go back to having Assur neutral and two city starting positions (and two challenges starting positions*) and you'd be pretty good to go.

*I'm assuming that starting positions can do such a thing, where each players in a 1v1 starts with one of the assigned cities and one of the assigned challenges. Tho logic would seem to indicate that this might not necessarily be the case, as taken to its logical extreme t'would mean that a given map could have all start positions coded in, thus allowing the cartographer to dictate a 1v1 drop.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Mon May 11, 2009 8:19 am

Incandenza wrote:Heck, you could go back to having Assur neutral and two city starting positions (and two challenges starting positions*) and you'd be pretty good to go.

*I'm assuming that starting positions can do such a thing, where each players in a 1v1 starts with one of the assigned cities and one of the assigned challenges. Tho logic would seem to indicate that this might not necessarily be the case, as taken to its logical extreme t'would mean that a given map could have all start positions coded in, thus allowing the cartographer to dictate a 1v1 drop.

possible, yes. But it means that player 1 in 1v1 starts with 15 territories, which is every bit as bad as giving player 1 the three challenges. Player 1 gets a first placement of five, and needs take only one territory to reduce his neighbor to 4 - an opening advantage.

As I've said in probably five posts here in the past two weeks, coding a lot of starting positions (and/or a lot of neutrals) seems solve the problem on the surface, but it screws up the balance of many other things.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby Merciless Wong on Mon May 11, 2009 10:16 am

The neutrals in this case are in cities (which are a pretty substantial bonus if they get upgraded as per earlier feedback to +3/+4), in one of the strongest continents in the game and one blocks access to a challenge. Pretty sure they will be engaged.

But they can be 1,2 or 3. Their effect on preventing an unfair drop is achieved regardless of size.

Neutral 1 might work.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby MrBenn on Mon May 11, 2009 3:28 pm

To put it into context, there is more-or-less 10% chance of dropping the British bonus on the Berlin map for a +2 bonus in 1v1s, and I don't recall many complaints about it. Because the build-your-own bonuses are so flexible, they're a lot harder to hold and defend beyond the first round, and my experience is that it takes a couple of rounds for people to establish where to start building their base from.

I think that too much effort is being put into balancing this for 1v1s, which give a huge bonus to whoever starts regardless of the drop (if they know what they're doing).
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 11, 2009 4:10 pm

So then roll it all the way back to 1 neutral (assur), 2 coded starting cities, and everything else falls where it may, with 5.7% chances to drop the 4 city bonus or the challenges. Those are decent odds, and besides, we're talking about bonus armies that could be wiped out with a single dice roll...
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Mon May 11, 2009 7:10 pm

MrBenn wrote:To put it into context, there is more-or-less 10% chance of dropping the British bonus on the Berlin map for a +2 bonus in 1v1s, and I don't recall many complaints about it. Because the build-your-own bonuses are so flexible, they're a lot harder to hold and defend beyond the first round, and my experience is that it takes a couple of rounds for people to establish where to start building their base from.

Did CC even have 1v1 games when I made Berlin?

MrBenn wrote:I think that too much effort is being put into balancing this for 1v1s, which give a huge bonus to whoever starts regardless of the drop (if they know what they're doing).

For what it's worth, I'm not losing any sleep over how long this conversation is taking. This has turned into an exercise in modeling flex bonuses and really understanding the odds of a game starting uneven. However it comes out this has been a worthwhile discussion, especially if the lessons we learn here can be applied to other maps.

I'll post a new plan tonight.
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Re: Gilgamesh; start positions p 10

Postby oaktown on Mon May 11, 2009 8:43 pm

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I've further simplified the city bonus situation by the doing the following:

• Removing the city from Karkemish
• Making just one city a neutral start (Babylon)
• Coding three cities as starting positions (Ur, Assur, Nineveh)
• Giving a generous bonus (+4) for holding the five cities
* Leaving the challenges as starting positions

Why I see this as good: nobody can start with a city or challenge bonus in two or three player games. In games of four or more players the odds of dropping the cities is the same as dropping Australia or South America - you need four of four territories among 42. The major cities are now clustered in the most active region historically during this era. We only have one coded neutral and it's in a place hat nobody can ingore - it's a pretty key piece of real estate to own. We've restored the map to having 42 starting territories in games of four +. There are still only 14 starting territories for players in two player games, so no advantage to P1. And with 43 territories every game type has to have a neutral somewhere - may as well control where it goes.

What might be problematic: by removing the Karkemish city the center of power shifts a bit to the south-east. Personally I like this because it's where the center of power should be historically, I think that this is at least somewhat tempered by the fact that there's a neutral territory that player will have to eliminate before he can start collecting the big money, and the recent removal of attack routes into Subartu makes it a more attractive target. Regardless, anybody who thinks that this game will be decided by whether Subartu is more or less powerful than Sumer hasn't played much CC - if you start by going after Subartu you've got bigger problems.
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby Merciless Wong on Mon May 11, 2009 9:11 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about shifting power SE. The other changes you made mean there are alternative mid game strategies to a Sumer victory.

Other than the starts the early game was always balanced. The +2's are balanced.

The middle game can be won by several strategies now:

Dilmun + Wilds
Canaan + Amorites

Sumer will be the USA of the map
Wilds, Dilmun will be little Australias
Cannan + Amorties will be a potential Africa + South America combination
Elam + Sumer will be like North & South America -> a good start with great expansion

And in all these options, you will get some genuine strategy.
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 11, 2009 10:23 pm

Now that's a draft that'll please all comers. If anyone else has gameplay concerns, do please speak now, otherwise I'm stampin' this puppy.
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon May 11, 2009 10:39 pm

Accepted. Stamp.


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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Now, now, good sir monkey, let's make sure everyone in the class has a say. :D

Tho considering all of the last 20 posts or so are oak, you, MrB, wong, and myself, I'm not exactly waiting for a flood of objections.
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon May 11, 2009 10:53 pm

:D Indeed, I'm just digging this map.


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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 11, 2009 10:55 pm

You and me both, bro.
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby MrBenn on Tue May 12, 2009 12:20 am

Incandenza wrote:Now that's a draft that'll please all comers. If anyone else has gameplay concerns, do please speak now, otherwise I'm stampin' this puppy.

I know not of any lawful impediment...
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue May 12, 2009 7:58 am

I'm not one of those, and yet …



… stamp.

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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 12, 2009 2:08 pm

STOP PRESSURING ME, YOU MEANIES! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here ya go, oak, well done!

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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby MrBenn on Tue May 12, 2009 3:16 pm

Congratulations!! =D>

The Graphics stamp shouldn;t be too far away now...
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Re: Gilgamesh; another attempt, p 11

Postby oaktown on Sun May 17, 2009 2:15 am

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Click image to enlarge.
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Small and large maps for the graphics people to nitpick.

I've made two minor changes to gameplay:
  • The bonus for holding all five cities has been dropped to +3. The +4 was a remnant of the days when there were six cities, and I felt that giving a +4 might be too generous considering how easy it will be to couple the cities bonus with Sumer
  • Redrew the southern border of The Passes to meet Halab... I dislike bottlenecks in maps, and this map has too many. If I see another place where I can eliminate a bottleneck I may it.

XML is written... I'll start army coordinates when the graphics are given the OK.
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Re: Gilgamesh; small & large pg 12

Postby MrBenn on Sun May 17, 2009 4:27 am

My only real concerns as far as the graphics are concerned are actually fairly minor ones, and I think they all relate to the mountains - not the style, which I think works well with the map, but the colouring of them in particular locations:

1. Jericho - the southernmost mountain doesnt stand out very much, and I would switch it to be a darker blue perhaps.
2. Awan - the pale beige mountain (between the two blues) blends into the impassable/non-playable area, so again I would switch the colour to something darker.
3. Between Nisir and The Great Darkness are two diagonal lines of beige/blue; I'd be inclined to mix up those colours a fraction to make them look more random
4. Arrata - there is a diagonal line of three beige mountains that blend into the non-playable area, and I would make one of them darker.

That's pretty much all I can see right now ;-)
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