Moderator: Community Team
Dukasaur wrote:Hooch wrote:DoomYoshi wrote:Hooch wrote:Not something I do, and I dislike, but long answer, no, until the ruling on it is changed and I will put forward it is more likely people card dodging than power cuts, leave it as is.
I'm not sure what you mean "until the ruling on it is changed". That's exactly the point of this thread, discussing whether or not the ruling should be changed.
In so far as it is illegal, not whether it should be a forced card down ones throat.
Clearly at present aside from clan games it is perfectly acceptable to dodge cards.
1) Why does this differ?
2) If it was or is an issue why isn't it punished?
Yes forcing a card on players saves someone/no one having to look into every accusation which at present isn't needed.
--------------
Duk at present maybe 120 people may vote on this, is that a mandate?
Again, I like the idea but think it should be across 'all' forms of the game and if it is deemed required I'd prefer it was actually spelt out as foul play otherwise leave it be.
I'm not sure if I understand your question. Most people do consider it foul play, but there's no actual rule against it.
There's no rule for two reasons. One, this cheat is common enough that it would clog the C&A board if we started actioning it. The C&A mods are just volunteers with finite time like the rest of us. Furthermore, C&A requires people to bring forth complaints. The majority of players don't take the time to read the logs after a game. It is quite likely someone has cheated you out of a game in this manner and you didn't even notice. Rules which require manual enforcement are going to be rarely and inconsistently enforced. The only way to have a rule consistently and reliably enforced is to make it built-in to the actual game mechanics.
The second reason, as I said in the OP, is historical. Speed games used to be a huge part of this site, and in speed games, especially freestyle speed, leaving yourself enough time to end your turn normally and get a card was part of the challenge..
IcePack wrote:I donāt think most consider it cheating, I would say most agree itās poor sportsmanship etc
betiko wrote:IcePack wrote:I donāt think most consider it cheating, I would say most agree itās poor sportsmanship etc
It's cheating in it's purest form. Missing your turn with 5 cards in escalating or not taking your 5th spoil in zombie/nuclear when you don't like the ones you have in hand is totally cheating. You cannot minimize the impact on the outcome of a game to do such things that would never happen in a real life game.
Metsfanmax wrote:I have always thought it was stupid logic and do consider it a bug that the listed rules do not mention this issue. But it's been there forever and changing it now would, I think, be a bad idea given how much people have come to expect it as part of their game play.
This is not something "you expect", what player do expect is getting a spoil after a successfull attack, player who expect not receiving a spoil expect to have enough other game to play so they can let that one running out of time and therefore not really bother about the fact they found a way to go around the game spirit.
Lack originally intended it to be this way so that people would actually end their turns, rather than letting the turn time out, with the idea that it was a punishment for players to not get a card, and it's a bad thing if people just never end their turns because it means the game slows down. (This was way back in the ancient days before there was a one-hour limit on turns.) Since it is clearly not the case that it's always a punishment to not get a card, I consider this reasoning flawed.
It is still an hour turn today , and not sure where is the punishement giving a card to someone? Again, if no card are wonder then 2 things, play no spoils game or do not conquer a territory....very simple right?
lackattack wrote:The original reasoning behind losing a card was to encourage people to click "End Fortifications" when they are done. This was a bigger issue before we had a 1-hour turn limit. Nonetheless, I have yet to see a large majority of people wanting to change it. Except for this poll whose wording is so biased the results are quite meaningless.
betiko wrote:Dukasaur wrote:Hooch wrote:DoomYoshi wrote:Hooch wrote:Not something I do, and I dislike, but long answer, no, until the ruling on it is changed and I will put forward it is more likely people card dodging than power cuts, leave it as is.
I'm not sure what you mean "until the ruling on it is changed". That's exactly the point of this thread, discussing whether or not the ruling should be changed.
In so far as it is illegal, not whether it should be a forced card down ones throat.
Clearly at present aside from clan games it is perfectly acceptable to dodge cards.
1) Why does this differ?
2) If it was or is an issue why isn't it punished?
Yes forcing a card on players saves someone/no one having to look into every accusation which at present isn't needed.
--------------
Duk at present maybe 120 people may vote on this, is that a mandate?
Again, I like the idea but think it should be across 'all' forms of the game and if it is deemed required I'd prefer it was actually spelt out as foul play otherwise leave it be.
I'm not sure if I understand your question. Most people do consider it foul play, but there's no actual rule against it.
There's no rule for two reasons. One, this cheat is common enough that it would clog the C&A board if we started actioning it. The C&A mods are just volunteers with finite time like the rest of us. Furthermore, C&A requires people to bring forth complaints. The majority of players don't take the time to read the logs after a game. It is quite likely someone has cheated you out of a game in this manner and you didn't even notice. Rules which require manual enforcement are going to be rarely and inconsistently enforced. The only way to have a rule consistently and reliably enforced is to make it built-in to the actual game mechanics.
The second reason, as I said in the OP, is historical. Speed games used to be a huge part of this site, and in speed games, especially freestyle speed, leaving yourself enough time to end your turn normally and get a card was part of the challenge..
here would be my ruling:
1) a player missing his turn in an escalating game WITH 5 CARDS IN HAND: his trade will hold the same value it had when he was forced to trade (let's call it N) all the following players get the trade they deserve. N+1, N+2 etc... the player who missed gets his deserved N, then his trades go back to normal wherever the escalating count is. If another player kills him, the first trade he gets midturn from that kill should be N i guess. This rule would be only for misses with 5 cards in hand in escalating. This is a common foul play that needs to end. Some might not miss on purpose, this rule seems fair for everybody.
2) in flat rate or escalating (spoils with benefits) not pressing end turn results in a spoil loss.
I would say except in team / poly games. That is for really advanced players who know what i m talking about... let s say a player is about to get killed... you might want to make a strategical attack but don t want to take the spoil so that the next opponent doesn t kill and cash mid turn...
3) in zombie or nuclear (spoils with double edge). Who has never used a safe spot... then ends up with a double pair... not knowing if the next spoil will make you nuke your stack? It's totally foul play to go break a bonus and not take your next spoil... that is a total exploitation of a loophole. Taking a tert in those games should give you an automatic spoil wether you end turn or not.
There. I think this covers all type of intentional turn or spoil miss that people exploit.
DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, there's a lot of accusations flying about the original intent.
Before I begin, I must preface by saying that this suggestion has already been SUBMITTED!
Here is the original submission:
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=188165&start=150#p4306685
The Submitted subforum of Suggestions no longer exists due to a Team CC restructuring and a healthy dose of reality (it wasn't really used properly anyway).
josko.ri wrote:It seems I am minority who supports to leave it as it is, Given that in my opinion it is only additional strategic option, not cheating in any way.
Hooch wrote:betiko wrote:
here would be my ruling:
1) a player missing his turn in an escalating game WITH 5 CARDS IN HAND: his trade will hold the same value it had when he was forced to trade (let's call it N) all the following players get the trade they deserve. N+1, N+2 etc... the player who missed gets his deserved N, then his trades go back to normal wherever the escalating count is. If another player kills him, the first trade he gets midturn from that kill should be N i guess. This rule would be only for misses with 5 cards in hand in escalating. This is a common foul play that needs to end. Some might not miss on purpose, this rule seems fair for everybody.
2) in flat rate or escalating (spoils with benefits) not pressing end turn results in a spoil loss.
I would say except in team / poly games. That is for really advanced players who know what i m talking about... let s say a player is about to get killed... you might want to make a strategical attack but don t want to take the spoil so that the next opponent doesn t kill and cash mid turn...
3) in zombie or nuclear (spoils with double edge). Who has never used a safe spot... then ends up with a double pair... not knowing if the next spoil will make you nuke your stack? It's totally foul play to go break a bonus and not take your next spoil... that is a total exploitation of a loophole. Taking a tert in those games should give you an automatic spoil wether you end turn or not.
There. I think this covers all type of intentional turn or spoil miss that people exploit.
Betiko gets it.
--------------
Yes Duk I realise what you say about volunteers and limited time, and all the times that CA reports would be put forward but there aren't a flood of spurious reports to check because it isn't illegal, until so let whomever play it as it is or give whomever a telling off.
As my question of mandate, presumably we have 6000 or so people playing, maybe 120 will vote on this poll, a small sample, would that be enough to decide for a change in game settings?
Mad777 wrote:I don't see why spoil type should have a different treatment, doesn't matter what some player found to be the best scenario receiving a crad or not the bottom line is that you conquer a territory - you get a card, there is a No Spoil setting for those who don't want to get a card.
All those "strategy" around a coding that has never been updated is against the spirit of the RISK game, if this suggestion pass the cut some player may found harder to win a game without being help by the game coding and more about how to escape a possible trap by trading cards...in this suggestion there isn't much room for grey area, either we allow the timing out or not and for all type of spoil.
The OP has been made in such a way to not let any "grey" zone...
betiko wrote:Mad777 wrote:I don't see why spoil type should have a different treatment, doesn't matter what some player found to be the best scenario receiving a crad or not the bottom line is that you conquer a territory - you get a card, there is a No Spoil setting for those who don't want to get a card.
All those "strategy" around a coding that has never been updated is against the spirit of the RISK game, if this suggestion pass the cut some player may found harder to win a game without being help by the game coding and more about how to escape a possible trap by trading cards...in this suggestion there isn't much room for grey area, either we allow the timing out or not and for all type of spoil.
The OP has been made in such a way to not let any "grey" zone...
looks like you either don't read me, or don't try to understand what you read... or just don't understand how this game works.
I know it's one of the first two, as it often happens with you... and I've seen you doing it in this thread to others
So let me rephrase, and I hope you'll give it a thought before replying this time
You cannot treat every type of settings the same way... In some cases, the essence of a setting is to collect as much spoils as possible; in some it's to avoid spoils in certain situations. In some very fast speed game settings, the whole strategy is to make your opponent run out of time so he doesn't collect his spoil.... And this type of setting is enjoyed by many, and is not illegit. It deserves to still be playable. I've also seen players taking the whole damn hour to take their turn. Why would they deserve the spoil if they take over an hour in a flat/escalating game? There is not 1 patch for everything. You need different remedies.
The OP is not enough specific. This can't be oversimplified like this. You need to separate the game types i've listed and treat them differently.
Furio wrote:First, I agree that this loophole should be closed.
That said, I think it's inaccurate to call it "cheating". As others have pointed, since one is able to do this without hacking, or coding, or having use of someone's password, and since it is done in plain sight with the full knowledge of all other game participants, then it isn't cheating - It's strategy.
The fact that I think it's a stupid glitch that takes away from game play doesn't make it cheating. We all know what cheating looks like - Multis, Secret Diplomacy, Passing recon in a foggy game. This just isn't that.
Just my opinion.
I'm in favor of closing this strategic loophole, as it's an easy thing to fix and doing so would be more in keeping with the spirit of the game's rules that not doing so would be.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users