Moderator: Community Team
Doc_Brown wrote:The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else.
Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though.
mrswdk wrote:Posters in this thread have clarified that CC's only two options are to keep the map exactly as is or remove it, so for the reasons stated in my suggestion below I am now proposing this map be retired.
Concise description:
- Change name of the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Era Jamaica'
Specifics/Details:
- As above
How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
- As per this thread, CC is pretty unanimous in agreeing that the name should change
- Whole range of reasons as to why the current name is no longer considered appropriate
- Very minor change that should only take a second to make
- Would help make CC feel more inclusive
SoN!c wrote:Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!
BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else.
Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though.
How did they transfer to Big Wham LLC? I guess lawyers haven't looked at these IP arrangements.
BaldAdonis wrote:SoN!c wrote:Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!
People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.
Dukasaur wrote:BaldAdonis wrote:SoN!c wrote:Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!
People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.
How could a map be racist? By acknowledging that slavery was a component of the colonial economy? It's a historical fact. Slavery was a HUGE component of colonial economies. Do you think that burying your head in the sand and pretending it didn't happen will retroactively make it go away?
Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
Doc_Brown wrote: very few people on this site would agree with your sentiment that the Jamaica map is racist.
BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.Doc_Brown wrote: very few people on this site would agree with your sentiment that the Jamaica map is racist.
Yes, I understand this place has leaned hard into racism over the last 12 years to appeal to Americans and push out everyone else. This site is awful.
BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
Doc_Brown wrote:BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
Are you a lawyer, then? If not, your own advice/interpretation of any legal agreements is at least as suspect as my own, assuming that I am not a lawyer. You have not actually confirmed whether I am or am not a lawyer. Also, note that the original quote was my own summary of what I know about the artwork licensing. So you're complaining that my explanation of my own summary of a legal agreement that has not been directly quoted anywhere in this thread is in error.
BaldAdonis wrote:This site is awful.
I would like to give some slight pushback on this sentiment. Yes, slavery was an historical fact, and anything that discusses the period should not hide that it occurred. Even so, there are choices to be made, both in how to depict it, as well as what to focus on. The Jamaica map chooses to depict the situation completely from the point of view of the colonizer. The map depicts slaves are a resource to be exploited, and Maroons as renegade (note the connotations of that word choice, it implies they were loyal before they escaped) slaves whose territories are passive and give a bonus when taken. That is a set of choices that are less likely to be made in that way if you could easily imagine yourself in the role of the enslaved.Dukasaur wrote:BaldAdonis wrote:SoN!c wrote:Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!
People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.
How could a map be racist? By acknowledging that slavery was a component of the colonial economy? It's a historical fact. Slavery was a HUGE component of colonial economies. Do you think that burying your head in the sand and pretending it didn't happen will retroactively make it go away?
Doc_Brown wrote:That's a fair position, though it might be interesting to back up a bit and look at a larger context. The entire focus of this game is about killing each other's troops and conquer territory. Every one of the geographic maps put you in the position of a military dictator subjugating neighboring territories to your own. On the Supermax map, you get a bonus for picking up weapons like a shiv or club that are used to brutally beat other prisoners. You can also get one for controlling the prison warden and the gas chamber used to execute prisoners. Arms Race allows you to win when you launch a nuclear weapon and commit widespread destruction on a civilian population. Depending on your background, any of the maps depicting an actual military battle could be deemed horribly offensive.
The key point here is that we can easily find things to offend us if we want. Or we can recognize that this is a war game where we are simulating battles that do not actually involve real people. When we play as one of the German commanders in the WW2 Poland map, we are not embracing Nazi actions. When we play Supermax, we are not celebrating prison violence. And when we get a bonus for taking the Maroon territories on Jamaica, we are not commending the subjugation of escaped slaves. Instead, we are playing a very abstract game on maps that can educate us about realities in history. After a few games on 1982, I went and read more about the Falklands War, but I'm sure there are Argentines who would find that map very distasteful. Imagine, on the other hand, the same Jamaican map with no slaves present. One could easily make the case that such a map was whitewashing history and attempting to hide the horrors of slavery.
BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
.
.SCuD. wrote:BaldAdonis wrote:Doc_Brown wrote:As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.
You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
.
I can only assume that you are not a lawyer BaldAdonis, because your assessment couldn't be further from the truth.
The commercial description allowing the transfer would depend, but in short the maps would always be "transferrable". Usually because they are licensed for use by the Product (in this case conquerclub) or the Organisation (Big Wham LLC) not the Person (Big Wham). In fact, in this instance they are licensed for use by the Product, conquerclub then any sale includes everything about that product, including the transfer of licensing.
There are some weird nuanced examples where ownership couldn't be "transferred", but in reality it is indeed transferred... i.e. where the Person owns the right to allow the Product, conquerclub to use the maps, but conquerclub has no right in and of itself.... however even in that instance the licensing would fundamentally be transferred because any contract of sale would require the Person to provide that right to conquerclub in perpetuity as part of the sale.
So stop it, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I admit that I feel a little strange attacking the beach from the bunkers in D-Day, but like you said, I don't actually embrace Nazism when I do. No, I hit the y4 from my r6. Nothing more, nothing less.Doc_Brown wrote:That's a fair position, though it might be interesting to back up a bit and look at a larger context. The entire focus of this game is about killing each other's troops and conquer territory. Every one of the geographic maps put you in the position of a military dictator subjugating neighboring territories to your own. On the Supermax map, you get a bonus for picking up weapons like a shiv or club that are used to brutally beat other prisoners. You can also get one for controlling the prison warden and the gas chamber used to execute prisoners. Arms Race allows you to win when you launch a nuclear weapon and commit widespread destruction on a civilian population. Depending on your background, any of the maps depicting an actual military battle could be deemed horribly offensive.
The key point here is that we can easily find things to offend us if we want. Or we can recognize that this is a war game where we are simulating battles that do not actually involve real people. When we play as one of the German commanders in the WW2 Poland map, we are not embracing Nazi actions. When we play Supermax, we are not celebrating prison violence. And when we get a bonus for taking the Maroon territories on Jamaica, we are not commending the subjugation of escaped slaves. Instead, we are playing a very abstract game on maps that can educate us about realities in history. After a few games on 1982, I went and read more about the Falklands War, but I'm sure there are Argentines who would find that map very distasteful. Imagine, on the other hand, the same Jamaican map with no slaves present. One could easily make the case that such a map was whitewashing history and attempting to hide the horrors of slavery.
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