The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow Wolves win

[Votanic]

a

I need to vote before 48 hours are up so I will do so

Vote; Extreme Ways

My reasoning being Extremes suggestion that Votanic use his power.
I'm wondering if this might be a cunning way to get Votanic to use his power, and in all probability use it on a player that is not Extreme Ways?
Its the only tangible theory I have under this time limit.

LC, I do agree with your general reasoning, and was thinking along the same lines:
Very early in the game EW comes on strong to get a particular confession, but then a few posts later admits it is a longshot that a randomly elected player would be a wolf...
However, getting confessor/cop intel is an important part of Mafia, so maybe EW always jumps out of the gate looking for that information.

The most difficult part of Mafia is the human element. Players will make outright mistakes and accidental contradictions and then be lynched for them. Even beyond that, just thinking out loud and addressing all the hypotheticals can begin to look scummy. Of course, it isn't necessarily a scum-tell at all, it is actually necessary for the game to proceed, ...but if it appears too manipulative/nonsensical it will be seen as such... The nail that sticks up is often hammered

However, as with everything else, Scum/Wolves will exploit this.
Almost any working of logical action can be flipped on its ass and made to be the reverse, or at least seem as such...
This is often called WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me), a Princess Bride reference, but just saying 'logic-flip' seems more plain speaking to me.

Okay, this is turning into a general sermon, but my point here is an exploration of critical thinking (The least scummy thing in the world).

A couple more preachy points:

Day 1 should not be rushed, this time of relative naiveté is crucial for later comparison
BTW, @Sonic, I love the idea that the wolves might not even know they are wolves on Day1!!! That probably isn't the case... but it would fantastic if it was!

Also, soon the question of player silence and it's possible scumminess, will loom large. Lets address this now.
Reasons for Silence
1.Gameplay Reasons: The player doesn't want to draw attention to himself.
A. The player is a Wolf, perhaps a V.I.P. wolf.
B. The player has a secret Town power role that should not draw attention to iself.
2. Real Life Reasons
A. Confused/Uncertain (How do I possibly play this game??)
B. Busy (Injured, Arrested and Dead also fall out here)
C. Bored (Why did I ever think joining a Mafia Game was a good idea.... - Crazy, I know, but some people think like this.)

Enough (too much?) for now.

Hmm, I also had another question for Traf, but now its slipped my mind. It will come to me...

[Votanic]

Ah yes, one other thing.

@ the Farmers: I don't think the Sheriff needs to be an experienced player. The mechanism of having an extra vote isn't complicated and everybody has the ability to do it.
Even though I can't vote, I would still like to see more candidates campaigning for the position.

[SoN!c]

Ah yes, one other thing.

@ the Farmers: I don't think the Sheriff needs to be an experienced player. The mechanism of having an extra vote isn't complicated and everybody has the ability to do it.
Even though I can't vote, I would still like to see more candidates campaigning for the position.

Well, im up for it too. But my "Persuading Voters" karma is a bit low atm. SomeThing to do with old playstyle or a Tick i have, i dunno..

But i will campaign starting now!, Just to say "+1" on your previous post (the long one you posted just now).

And yes, it will probably be the dull standard Werewolves of Miller's Hollow rulebook scenario where the wolves already know they are wolf now (but not knowing the other wolves until nightfall). BUT how cool would it be if the werewolves don't even know they are werewolf at this point? Only to find out tonight..on a full moon - after all in many old traditional werewolf tales, the werewolf retains little to no human memory when transformed (back). They just wake up naked and covered in blood in some poor peasant's field..

[Extreme Ways]

I need to vote before 48 hours are up so I will do so

Vote; Extreme Ways

My reasoning being Extremes suggestion that Votanic use his power.
I'm wondering if this might be a cunning way to get Votanic to use his power, and in all probability use it on a player that is not Extreme Ways?
Its the only tangible theory I have under this time limit.

One other thing I want to point out is that although I am town at the moment, it isn't necessarily the case that I or any other player that starts town will remain town. There is an accursed werewolf character who if in play might be able to change a player into a werewolf. Also in one night werewolf players roles change and this makes me suspect that there is such a character. It might even be that Extreme is playing an extremely clever game as the accursed werewolf who intends to convert any player that Votanic checks out as town into werewolf.

@Traf/others do we know what kind of wolves are in play?

[Extreme Ways]

a

I need to vote before 48 hours are up so I will do so

Vote; Extreme Ways

My reasoning being Extremes suggestion that Votanic use his power.
I'm wondering if this might be a cunning way to get Votanic to use his power, and in all probability use it on a player that is not Extreme Ways?
Its the only tangible theory I have under this time limit.

LC, I do agree with your general reasoning, and was thinking along the same lines:
Very early in the game EW comes on strong to get a particular confession, but then a few posts later admits it is a longshot that a randomly elected player would be a wolf...
However, getting confessor/cop intel is an important part of Mafia, so maybe EW always jumps out of the gate looking for that information.

The most difficult part of Mafia is the human element. Players will make outright mistakes and accidental contradictions and then be lynched for them. Even beyond that, just thinking out loud and addressing all the hypotheticals can begin to look scummy. Of course, it isn't necessarily a scum-tell at all, it is actually necessary for the game to proceed, ...but if it appears too manipulative/nonsensical it will be seen as such... The nail that sticks up is often hammered

However, as with everything else, Scum/Wolves will exploit this.
Almost any working of logical action can be flipped on its ass and made to be the reverse, or at least seem as such...
This is often called WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me), a Princess Bride reference, but just saying 'logic-flip' seems more plain speaking to me.

Okay, this is turning into a general sermon, but my point here is an exploration of critical thinking (The least scummy thing in the world).

A couple more preachy points:

Day 1 should not be rushed, this time of relative naiveté is crucial for later comparison
BTW, @Sonic, I love the idea that the wolves might not even know they are wolves on Day1!!! That probably isn't the case... but it would fantastic if it was!

Also, soon the question of player silence and it's possible scumminess, will loom large. Lets address this now.
Reasons for Silence
1.Gameplay Reasons: The player doesn't want to draw attention to himself.
A. The player is a Wolf, perhaps a V.I.P. wolf.
B. The player has a secret Town power role that should not draw attention to iself.
2. Real Life Reasons
A. Confused/Uncertain (How do I possibly play this game??)
B. Busy (Injured, Arrested and Dead also fall out here)
C. Bored (Why did I ever think joining a Mafia Game was a good idea.... - Crazy, I know, but some people think like this.)

Enough (too much?) for now.

Hmm, I also had another question for Traf, but now its slipped my mind. It will come to me...

Activity is oftentimes not an indication of scumminess, and inactives are lhf (low hanging fruit) to push as mafia. In one of the games, scum kinda purposefully didnt kill optimally to keep the game going so theres also the fun aspect but I rest my case.

As for your point about using my/your power, in my first post I did not mention anybody in particular:

Confirmed. I also have it confirmed that should I die and a vagabond be instated, my power can be reused again. I see no issue in Vot using his power today twice, though whether Vot is town.. is to be seen.

Later on I went into a little more specifics:

Fwiw I think Vota should check someone before we vote for a sherrif. But maybe checking one of the other buildings makes more sense. I can replenish his power.

I'm not used to this day-action setup that's not replenished, but investigatives are usually best when they aren't saved for the next game. But I agree with you that my initial posts were a tad dumb. We, or you, should use your power once the day has progressed to a state in which we have one or more serious wagons. I call them Swagons, a counter to randwagon.

You know what's funny? I just said activity is not an indication of scumminess and yet I have spidey tingles about fusi, I expected a larger presence. Small sample size, but I'm confident that I can find fusi as town if he's town.

[SoN!c]

I need to vote before 48 hours are up so I will do so

Vote; Extreme Ways

My reasoning being Extremes suggestion that Votanic use his power.
I'm wondering if this might be a cunning way to get Votanic to use his power, and in all probability use it on a player that is not Extreme Ways?
Its the only tangible theory I have under this time limit.

One other thing I want to point out is that although I am town at the moment, it isn't necessarily the case that I or any other player that starts town will remain town. There is an accursed werewolf character who if in play might be able to change a player into a werewolf. Also in one night werewolf players roles change and this makes me suspect that there is such a character. It might even be that Extreme is playing an extremely clever game as the accursed werewolf who intends to convert any player that Votanic checks out as town into werewolf.

@Traf/others do we know what kind of wolves are in play?

I assume the "Werewolf wiki" could be used / is in play?

These are the wolf characters;

Wolf
Werecrow
Wolf cub
Werekitten
Alpha wolf
Fallen angel
Wolf mystic
Wolf shaman
Doomsayer
Tough wolf
Wolf gunner

From https://werewolf.chat/Roles

Loose thinks your the alpha wolf (well, that is how i understood it at least, perhaps there are more roles out there):

Alpha wolf: Once per game following the death of another wolf, you can bite someone to turn them into a wolf. You may also kill a villager.

[Devante]

So now there may be different kinds of wolf, oi vey. What did I sign up for. Back to the bar I go

[strike wolf]

Ah yes, one other thing.

@ the Farmers: I don't think the Sheriff needs to be an experienced player. The mechanism of having an extra vote isn't complicated and everybody has the ability to do it.
Even though I can't vote, I would still like to see more candidates campaigning for the position.

I'd trust a more experienced player more with the vote though as I'd find them a little less likely to be swayed by a bad argument from a wolf.

EW seems to be acting like there isn't protection from kills/conversion? Admittedly I'm still reading through guides on WoMH but I would have thought there would be something.

Honestly, feeling surprisingly lost in this game so far. The opposing sides of EW and DDS seem interesting. I can see the logic of how either side could be scummy but DDS's behavior seems slightly scummier to me as he does come across as nervous about the possibility of being investigated. With Loose having already voted, I guess I could default to taking away both of their votes but feel like I'd be making a big decision based on little info.

I agree with EW that activity isn't the strongest indicator of scum but I would argue that it can be a good starting point to get the game going.

[Devante]

Trying to follow along here but if I read things right we should check whoever becomes sheriff or at least just check somebody. If I understand given the power extreme to restore somebody's one time power use the wolves would just pick to kill him tonight and then his power would be lost anyways. Unless of course he's a wolf which then if he doesn't die or doesn't restore that power would be suspicious. If I got this right anyways it does make sense to me

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'm merely advocating that our one shot abilities be used sparingly and not on a susy floozie whim. I'm pretty sure we all have other roles as well and given the size, we likely have a doc, cop, BG combo. Let them be useful.

As for Sheriff, i think Pixar is the best candidate. He's pretty reserved on his voting.

FP - We shouldn't check because the power, while it's absurd for scum, it can benefit in the right hands. I'm saying hold off on the ability for just this day and see what happens. With that being said, whoever gets it will probably face deeper scrutiny in their voting habits, but this could be a good thing.

[DirtyDishSoap]

This joke phase sucked and you have all let me down.

[Votanic]

I need to vote before 48 hours are up so I will do so

Vote; Extreme Ways

My reasoning being Extremes suggestion that Votanic use his power.
I'm wondering if this might be a cunning way to get Votanic to use his power, and in all probability use it on a player that is not Extreme Ways?
Its the only tangible theory I have under this time limit.

One other thing I want to point out is that although I am town at the moment, it isn't necessarily the case that I or any other player that starts town will remain town. There is an accursed werewolf character who if in play might be able to change a player into a werewolf. Also in one night werewolf players roles change and this makes me suspect that there is such a character. It might even be that Extreme is playing an extremely clever game as the accursed werewolf who intends to convert any player that Votanic checks out as town into werewolf.

@Traf/others do we know what kind of wolves are in play?

I assume the "Werewolf wiki" could be used / is in play?

These are the wolf characters;

Wolf
Werecrow
Wolf cub
Werekitten
Alpha wolf
Fallen angel
Wolf mystic
Wolf shaman
Doomsayer
Tough wolf
Wolf gunner

From https://werewolf.chat/Roles

Loose thinks your the alpha wolf (well, that is how i understood it at least, perhaps there are more roles out there):

Alpha wolf: Once per game following the death of another wolf, you can bite someone to turn them into a wolf. You may also kill a villager.

werewolf.chat???
what the???

Okay, before I recklessly haul off and tell Sonic to 'omg stfu!!!'... I will ask Traf.
@ Traf, does this werewolf.chat thing have anything to do with the game we are now playing?

If it does, I apologize.
If it doesn't, you heard me.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

@ Traf, does this werewolf.chat thing have anything to do with the game we are now playing?

Knowing this might be a complicated set up. I did not brought all kinda crazy roles from every werewolf version on the internet. Almost every single role in game can be found in the pact pdf I posted on the sign-up thread. I might have taken one or 2 roles from some other WoMH versions and modified some roles to make them playable on forums tho.

[Votanic]

@ Traf, does this werewolf.chat thing have anything to do with the game we are now playing?

Knowing this might be a complicated set up. I did not brought all kinda crazy roles from every werewolf version on the internet. Almost every single role in game can be found in the pact pdf I posted on the sign-up thread. I might have taken one or 2 roles from some other WoMH versions and modified some roles to make them playable on forums tho.

Uh, that sounds like a 'no', right?

[TrafalgarLaw01]

right

[DirtyDishSoap]

What's your line of thinking Vot?

[Votanic]

What's your line of thinking Vot?

Do you mean about Sonic trying to introduce a whole list of completely irrelevent and inapplicable werewolf characters from another game into our game so that they could cause endless confusion and distraction?
If you mean about that, I'm thinking that is unfortunately an all-too-typical Sonic move.

I don't even want to reopen the old "Sonic: Scum, or just plays like it?" debate.
...but it probably will become an issue whether I want it or not.

[Extreme Ways]

Aaaaaaah I find it difficult to read Vot.

Also I dont think DDS is inherently scummy for proposing what he did. He plays D1 in a different manner and I think this is an extension of that.

[SoN!c]

What's your line of thinking Vot?

Do you mean about Sonic trying to introduce a whole list of completely irrelevent and inapplicable werewolf characters from another game into our game so that they could cause endless confusion and distraction?
If you mean about that, I'm thinking that is unfortunately an all-too-typical Sonic move.

I don't even want to reopen the old "Sonic: Scum, or just plays like it?" debate.
...but it probably will become an issue whether I want it or not.

Im not, i was only responding to EW and explaining Loose his idea about an "alpha wolf" - (the "accursed wolf" as he calls it), that can bite and turn townies into werewolves..

[Ewebasher]

So to summarise where we are (please correct me if I've missed something):

Sheriff votes
*Pixar* 1 (DDS)
DDS 1 (SoN!c)

+ SoN!c putting himself up for election and *Pixar* saying he was going to vote DDS

Lynch votes
Extreme Ways 1 (Loose Canon)
DDS 1 (Maxleod)

I'd stupidly missed the fact that Confessor was a one time power (makes sense in hindsight otherwise would be too powerful) and was strongly in favour of using on Sheriff-elect. May argue against that now, although with Bonesetter and Bailiff/Vagabonds am I right in saying we could potentially hear 6 confessions... Makes Confessor an interesting role... if he uses his power he is more likely to be safe from being killed (as why would the Wolves kill him to make way for someone else who could reuse the power) but if he doesn't use it the village may get frustrated that he could have helped find a Wolf...

Based purely on a toss of a coin I'm thinking tentatively Vote DDS but would argue for a pre-election confession

[Extreme Ways]

So to summarise where we are (please correct me if I've missed something):

Sheriff votes
*Pixar* 1 (DDS)
DDS 1 (SoN!c)

+ SoN!c putting himself up for election and *Pixar* saying he was going to vote DDS

Lynch votes
Extreme Ways 1 (Loose Canon)
DDS 1 (Maxleod)

I'd stupidly missed the fact that Confessor was a one time power (makes sense in hindsight otherwise would be too powerful) and was strongly in favour of using on Sheriff-elect. May argue against that now, although with Bonesetter and Bailiff/Vagabonds am I right in saying we could potentially hear 6 confessions... Makes Confessor an interesting role... if he uses his power he is more likely to be safe from being killed (as why would the Wolves kill him to make way for someone else who could reuse the power) but if he doesn't use it the village may get frustrated that he could have helped find a Wolf...

Based purely on a toss of a coin I'm thinking tentatively Vote DDS but would argue for a pre-election confession

That depends on who is killed, too. If the move-people-in-building guy is killed (Ragian), nobody can move in anymore. Rag's role is my favourite.

@Strike it's likely we have a witch and an agoraphobe (person who visits and is safe from nightkills unless wolves kill the person agoraphobe visited). In original WW I played in the past, Witch was one-shot for both the protect and the vig shot.

[DirtyDishSoap]

[SoN!c]

Great story DDS "A night in downtown Camas NE 4th Ave" Keep em coming

[Ragian]

Activity is oftentimes not an indication of scumminess, and inactives are lhf (low hanging fruit) to push as mafia. In one of the games, scum kinda purposefully didnt kill optimally to keep the game going so theres also the fun aspect but I rest my case.

True shit. Winning is always nice, but it's nicer to have a fun game. Even when (almost all) others are morons

Now, the few times I've seen DDS as scum, he gets in his own way. Today, he has been a lot more "aggressive" (trying not to say douchebaggy), which has an eyebrow raised from here.

And activity is not a universal tool to prove anything. No scumtells are. I know some prefer a "well, this happened, so that means we've found scum...I'm off to bed"-mentality in order not to have to use one's smarts. So, @EW, why did you expect Fusi to be a stronger presence? And why are you defending and excusing yourself based on one vote?

[Ragian]

What's your line of thinking Vot?

Do you mean about Sonic trying to introduce a whole list of completely irrelevent and inapplicable werewolf characters from another game into our game so that they could cause endless confusion and distraction?
If you mean about that, I'm thinking that is unfortunately an all-too-typical Sonic move.

I don't even want to reopen the old "Sonic: Scum, or just plays like it?" debate.
...but it probably will become an issue whether I want it or not.

This is funny. I'm going to get my popcorn out now.