Religious Freedom in the US

by **Dukasaur** on Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:10 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
They don't do anything at mensa, just congratulate themselves on how smart they are. Its some purpose is for like-minded people to associate.

How about women-only gyms? Must they be forced to accept men? You don't need to be a woman to stretch out on a yoga mat.

-TG

My experience of Mensa was that there were a bunch of clubs in which you could meet other Mensa people who shared your interests, you could meet up if you were in an area where there were enough members to bother with, and (In London) there were some actually quite interesting meetings where people would debate various topics. Often we would have celebrity guests to start the debates off. But my overwhelming take-away impression was that having a high IQ didn't stop anybody from being an arsehole, having bloody stupid opinions, or being unable to apply logic to matters that were personal to them. Oh, and Issac Asimov was a toilet-head.

That, and the membership fee was outrageous. $165/year, and that was 25 years ago. I joined once, didn't renew for a second year.

by **jonesthecurl** on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:25 pm

I don't remember what it cost, it was a long while ago. When I worked in London it was worthwhile 'cos there were quite a lot of events - for instance that debate with celebrity/expert guests - for instance we had Hans Eysenk, Magnus Pyke (who was very famous back then), we had some UFO expert and for some unfathomable reason we had Jimmy Saville.
But when I stopped working in London I gave up 'cos there was nothing local to me.

by **Symmetry** on Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:05 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:I don't remember what it cost, it was a long while ago. When I worked in London it was worthwhile 'cos there were quite a lot of events - for instance that debate with celebrity/expert guests - for instance we had Hans Eysenk, Magnus Pyke (who was very famous back then), we had some UFO expert and for some unfathomable reason we had Jimmy Saville.
But when I stopped working in London I gave up 'cos there was nothing local to me.

Jimmy Savile conned a lot of people. So did Mensa, apparently.

It always seemed like a group that never really understood that sometimes the Emperor is buck-naked.

by **DoomYoshi** on Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:17 pm

It's vile, not ville. Shouldn't be too hard to remember.

by **Symmetry** on Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:19 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:It's vile, not ville. Shouldn't be too hard to remember.

Point taken.

by **TA1LGUNN3R** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:19 pm

Mrs' lack of a reply indicates she agrees with me. She realizes that a fruity interior decorator should be able to choose his clientele, and for instance shouldn't be forced to decorate VP Pence's house.

Hooray for mrs and her embracing of liberty! :-P

-TG

by **mrswdk** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:41 pm

I took the same approach to this thread that I took to Mensa - too clever to join in the first place

by **Symmetry** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:16 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Mrs' lack of a reply indicates she agrees with me. She realizes that a fruity interior decorator should be able to choose his clientele, and for instance shouldn't be forced to decorate VP Pence's house.

Hooray for mrs and her embracing of liberty!

-TG

"Fruity"? And what makes you think interior decorators are all men?

Oranges are not the only fruit, TG. Just because the executive branch of the US is not safe around women without a chaperone doesn't mean that their rules should be universally applied.

by **TA1LGUNN3R** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:39 pm

Symmetry wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Mrs' lack of a reply indicates she agrees with me. She realizes that a fruity interior decorator should be able to choose his clientele, and for instance shouldn't be forced to decorate VP Pence's house.

Hooray for mrs and her embracing of liberty!

-TG

"Fruity"? And what makes you think interior decorators are all men?

Oranges are not the only fruit, TG. Just because the executive branch of the US is not safe around women without a chaperone doesn't mean that their rules should be universally applied.

Fruity-- (noun) symmetrical in nature.

-TG's Online Dictionary

by **Symmetry** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:42 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Mrs' lack of a reply indicates she agrees with me. She realizes that a fruity interior decorator should be able to choose his clientele, and for instance shouldn't be forced to decorate VP Pence's house.

Hooray for mrs and her embracing of liberty!

-TG

"Fruity"? And what makes you think interior decorators are all men?

Oranges are not the only fruit, TG. Just because the executive branch of the US is not safe around women without a chaperone doesn't mean that their rules should be universally applied.

Fruity-- (noun) symmetrical in nature.

-TG's Online Dictionary

It's often fascinating to find out how other people define themselves when they look in the mirror.

by **mrswdk** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:07 pm

Did Symmetry really just drop an 'I know you are but what am I?'

by **Symmetry** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:25 pm

mrswdk wrote:Did Symmetry really just drop an 'I know you are but what am I?'

Way to spoil the joke, kid. It would have taken TG days to figure that one out.

by **TA1LGUNN3R** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:51 pm

Longer than that, I'm too dumb for such a sophisticated wit.

-TG

by **Symmetry** on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:55 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Longer than that, I'm too dumb for such a sophisticated wit.

-TG

Obviously I didn't want to insult your intelligence.

by **mrswdk** on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 am

I should have been more specific in my last post: I took the same approach to posting in this thread after Symmetry got involved in it as I did to joining Mensa.

by **Symmetry** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:22 pm

mrswdk wrote:I should have been more specific in my last post: I took the same approach to posting in this thread after Symmetry got involved in it as I did to joining Mensa.

The answer in both cases- you never learn.

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:05 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Some relevant news items:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/20726/wat ... k-berrien#
Democrats attack a super hot Catholic judicial nominee over her religion. It's illegal to do this in the United States, but no one seems to care (other than people like me).

This is absolutely a problem. That being said, I have difficulty taking anything that Feinstein does seriously - she lives hypocricy.

thegreekdog wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/07/politics/bannon-catholic-church/index.html
The king of conservative media (or whatever) is drudging up old 19th century anti-Catholic stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

It's Bannon...I don't expect anything but chaos when Bannon is involved.

thegreekdog wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/in-major-supreme-court-case-justice-dept-sides-with-baker-who-refused-to-make-wedding-cake-for-gay-couple/2017/09/07/fb84f116-93f0-11e7-89fa-bb822a46da5b_story.html?utm_term=.60080335a3eb
A baker who doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding for religious reasons is getting his ass kicked.

Good. He should. You don't get to ignore the law just because you run a business. If your personal morals make you not willing to follow the laws that apply to your business, then you should go into a business that better aligns with your morals.

thegreekdog wrote:Is religious freedom on the way out in the United States?

That's cute. In a nation where not a single President has been elected who wasn't at least tacitly claiming to be a Christian, there arises the idea that Christians are persecuted. Cute.

thegreekdog wrote:Do you think we see a partial repeal of the 1st Amendment (either through an amendment or judicial activism)?

Not a chance.

thegreekdog wrote:Why are Democrats and liberals (and libertarians) focusing on Christians/Catholics and not other religions?

SOME Democrats. Most liberals aren't any more enamored of Islam than they are Christianity, there just frankly aren't as many American Muslims doing things outrageous enough to cause a reaction as there are American Christians. That's really the difference...American Christians seem to have started to lose their minds lately (as a whole, obviously it doesn't apply to all).

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:06 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I forgot to mention the whole "Catholic hospitals and employers have to provide abortion and birth control" issue.

Precisely the same situation as the baker...if your personal morals don't allow you to follow the laws regarding your business, then perhaps you should go into a business where the laws better align with your morals. I genuinely don't understand why a business's religious beliefs get to override their customers' religious beliefs. If you don't like contraceptives, don't take them...that's really the end of it, in my opinion.

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:11 pm

DirtyDishSoap wrote:Alright, so I'm siding with the baker. Privately owned bakery, completely allowed to bar people provided the service is blanket. Sucks to be gay, go to another bakery?

I'd love it if this were how the world would work without it being abused. Unfortunately, history shows that it does not. You don't always have another provider of the service you can go to, and so objectively we have to keep that in mind.

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:14 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Either way you're still talking about someone refusing to serve a customer for no reason other than that the customer is gay. I don't really understand why that is a right that you need or want to protect.

It shouldn't matter what the reason is. I, for instance, won't hire people with silverware in their face. I'm still waiting for some asshole with a bullring in his nose to sue me and claim his human rights are being violated.

Freedom of association is a the root of a free society. Freedom to associate implies the freedom to not associate. If you don't like somebody, you shouldn't have to deal with them. Why shouldn't even be a question.

Unfortunately, American history shows quite clearly that this plan doesn't always work. I wish it did...but we don't always have another provider of a service we can go to, which means that some people will be left without that service. In the case of a baker for a wedding cake, it's not an actual real problem...but what if it comes down to something that is a real, serious problem? Perhaps providing food, for instance?

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:15 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Either way you're still talking about someone refusing to serve a customer for no reason other than that the customer is gay. I don't really understand why that is a right that you need or want to protect.

It shouldn't matter what the reason is. I, for instance, won't hire people with silverware in their face. I'm still waiting for some asshole with a bullring in his nose to sue me and claim his human rights are being violated.

Would you also be happy for a government department, police precinct or hospital to refuse to hire people who are gay, black etc.?

Institutions run on public money need to serve all of the public. Private individuals don't.

Odd that you snipped this line:

Freedom of association is a the root of a free society. Freedom to associate implies the freedom to not associate. If you don't like somebody, you shouldn't have to deal with them. Why shouldn't even be a question.

Racists in the American south during the Civil Rights Era would LOVE that being the perspective.

by **Woodruff** on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:17 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Yes. If you're dumb enough to hate Sikhs or whatever, you'll pay the marginal costs of cutting yourself off from this pool of potential applicants. If you have a long list of hates, you'll cut yourself off from several pools of potential applicants. Over time, companies that don't discriminate will do better than companies that do.

Again, America's own history shows that this isn't always true. The "free market" isn't going to correct for something like this if the majority of people hold the racist view.