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And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

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And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:41 pm

There was a wonderful article in Crisis Magazine Calling a Spade, a Spade by Angelo Stagnaro, which I think deserves your reading attention. He starts off by saying he forgives Protestants for a lot of things, the Know-Nothing Party and their murderous Philadelphia Nativist Riot, the Intolerable Acts, Bloody Monday and the Orange Riots in New York City in 1871 and 1872, the KKK and for funding the Mexican atheist genocidal maniac Plutarco Ares Calles in his efforts to kill Catholics during the Cristero Wars and the list goes on and on and on.

But what I canā€™t forgive them for, not yet at least, is their insipid restorationismā€•the idea that God somehow made a mistake 2000 years ago when he gave control of the his, One, True Church to the Catholic Church and the papacy, whose progenitor was St. Peter as testified by Christ not once but twice in the New Testament (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-17).

Restorationism is the belief that Christianity should be restored to how it was during the Apostolic Era using nothing but Scripturesā€•a project doomed to failure. Their goal to re-establish Christianity in its original form has been a part of Christianity for 2000 years and, indeed, St. Francis of Assisi hoped to ā€œget back to the basicsā€ also but he didnā€™t make the mistake of believing that God had made a mistake in putting St. Peter and his successors in charge. Rather, he hoped to refocus the Churchā€•not to change dogma and authority.
Muslims also celebrate a restorationism of sorts in that they believe Islam is what Allah always had in mind but was simply not sure how to implement it successfully until the advent of Mohammad. They believe that both Jews and Christians have become corrupted along with their sacred scriptures, which are ā€œuntrustworthyā€ due to Allahā€™s machinations. And that only they have a perfect and complete understanding of Godā€™s ā€œtrue plan.ā€

Sound familiar?

But if this is true, as in the case of Protestantism, then how did Godā€™s message get garbled in the first place? Wouldnā€™t God have known his message was going to get hinky? If heā€™s omniscient and omnicompetent he would. A lesser god would easily fall into this error.

How was he so foolish in trusting the wrong people initially? How could mere mortals come to realize something that he couldnā€™t (Job 38:1-41:34)?

But, more importantly, how can we ever trust this imperfect deity now that new messengers, none of whom are divine, have come along? Perhaps this deity is confused once again. Itā€™s a slippery slope and one that is easily proven wrong.

I donā€™t see a difference in what these Christian restorationists believe and that which Islamic restorationists proffer. Itā€™s not odd that Protestants had received Muslim financial, political and ideological support 500 years agoā€•birds of a feather, as it were.

But the main reason I condemn restorationism is that itā€™s a non-starter. If someone believes in evil grand conspiracy theories, they make themselves out to be the hero/champion that God has been looking for. Itā€™s up to them and no one else! They are the thin holy line that separates Order and Chaosā€•between Heaven and Hell. And as they are assured of their sanctified state, anything and everything they think, say and do is acceptable. After all, this is what ā€œGod wantedā€ all alongā€¦
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:28 pm

But what I canā€™t forgive them for, not yet at least, is their insipid restorationismā€•the idea that God somehow made a mistake 2000 years ago when he gave control of the his, One, True Church to the Catholic Church and the papacy, whose progenitor was St. Peter as testified by Christ not once but twice in the New Testament (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-17).

There was no mistake 2000 years ago. There is no evidence that Peter ever started the church at Rome. Even if he did, since he was the apostle to the circumcised, and all the Jews were kicked out of Rome, the church that remained wouldn't be, in any meaningful sense, his. At Jesus' death, He left 11 apostles, and Peter himself testified that they needed a twelfth. The idea that any one human is sufficient to represent Christ on Earth is unbiblical. Let's not forget that Peter betrayed the Lord at His hour of need, just like Judas. Even after he took on a leadership role in the early church, he was still chastised by Paul for Judaizing, who incidently also did not found the church at Rome.

Restorationism is the belief that Christianity should be restored to how it was during the Apostolic Era using nothing but Scripturesā€•a project doomed to failure. Their goal to re-establish Christianity in its original form has been a part of Christianity for 2000 years and, indeed, St. Francis of Assisi hoped to ā€œget back to the basicsā€ also but he didnā€™t make the mistake of believing that God had made a mistake in putting St. Peter and his successors in charge.

That's an overly simplistic description of restorationism although there are some who hold that view exactly, it certainly isn't the view of all Protestants. Many "Catholics" did decry the prominence of the papacy through the generations. Have you already forgot the vitriolic discussion on papal infallibility less than 200 years ago? If there was no restoration 500 years ago why did Trent introduce such sweeping reforms? The problem with the Roman Catholic church isn't just in the papacy though. John Paul II tried to introduce some reforms, like biblical stations of the cross, but the Catholic church is so large that any admission of prior incorrectness became simply impossible. One of the biggest problems with Roman Catholicism is Mariology. It is such an ingrained part of the church that it would be impossible to modify, even for a pope who knew better.

A more balanced approach to restorationism is that the church is always in a state of restoration. Every generation needs to redefine Jesus, not because Jesus changes, but because we do. The Nicene creed and the transubstantiation debates are perfect examples of this. Both are formed on Greek philosophies of "substances" and "natures". However, we don't understand the world in terms of either substance or nature, but rather in terms of matter and energy. Since the only definitions of Christ accepted by the Catholic church depend on substance and nature; and since substance and nature don't exist; it follows that they don't believe Jesus exists. This is why many peg the date of the "great apostasy" with Constantine. There was a highly nuanced theological argument between Arians and Niceans. Rather than letting it play out over the course of millenia, it was turned into a political debate. Just like how everybody today has an opinion on climate change or evolution even though they are neither climatologists or evolutionary biologists, so then did everybody have an opinion on the trinity, even though they were mostly illiterate and not theologians. This council that was supposed to come to a conclusion actually brought further schism and debate and took several hundred years to settle down but not because of papal authority or even because one position was right. Rather, the council decided in their infinite wisdom that Greek philosophy was the best humans would ever come up with and therefore all theological discussion for all time has to be soaked in Greek philosophy. Until you understand Plato, you can't hear the message of Christ.

Rather, he hoped to refocus the Churchā€•not to change dogma and authority.
Muslims also celebrate a restorationism of sorts in that they believe Islam is what Allah always had in mind but was simply not sure how to implement it successfully until the advent of Mohammad. They believe that both Jews and Christians have become corrupted along with their sacred scriptures, which are ā€œuntrustworthyā€ due to Allahā€™s machinations. And that only they have a perfect and complete understanding of Godā€™s ā€œtrue plan.ā€

Sound familiar?

But if this is true, as in the case of Protestantism, then how did Godā€™s message get garbled in the first place? Wouldnā€™t God have known his message was going to get hinky? If heā€™s omniscient and omnicompetent he would. A lesser god would easily fall into this error.

How was he so foolish in trusting the wrong people initially? How could mere mortals come to realize something that he couldnā€™t (Job 38:1-41:34)?

There are no "right people". That's kind of the entire point of Christianity. If we could do it on our own, we wouldn't need Jesus. Also, He didn't "trust the wrong people initially". It wasn't until the 800s that the Pope started having significant power, although there was some earlier stuff (the computus debate with the Irish monasteries, for example).

But, more importantly, how can we ever trust this imperfect deity now that new messengers, none of whom are divine, have come along? Perhaps this deity is confused once again. Itā€™s a slippery slope and one that is easily proven wrong.

How can we ever trust an imperfect pope is the real question. Have you ever wondered why we need 4 gospels? It's because one person's viewpoint isn't enough to capture the complexity of Jesus. A multitude of views are to be expected and desired.

I donā€™t see a difference in what these Christian restorationists believe and that which Islamic restorationists proffer. Itā€™s not odd that Protestants had received Muslim financial, political and ideological support 500 years agoā€•birds of a feather, as it were.

I don't see a difference between the Koran, which mentions Mary more than the Bible (70 times and the only named female!) and the rosary prayers, which mention Mary more than the Bible.

But the main reason I condemn restorationism is that itā€™s a non-starter. If someone believes in evil grand conspiracy theories, they make themselves out to be the hero/champion that God has been looking for. Itā€™s up to them and no one else! They are the thin holy line that separates Order and Chaosā€•between Heaven and Hell. And as they are assured of their sanctified state, anything and everything they think, say and do is acceptable. After all, this is what ā€œGod wantedā€ all alongā€¦

So you have to arbitrarily put authority somewhere. You can put it in the hands of a successor to Sergius III or in the authority of the Holy Spirit and the Bible. Take your pick.

One of the blessings of the reformation is the denominational system. Many decry that system since we all need to be "one in Christ" yet we still are one in Christ. There's an old joke that if you have 3 Christians in a room you will have 4 different opinions. The Bible contains many seeming contradictions. For example, the kingdom has come but it is still coming. The message is universal, but still has an ingroup/outgroup mentality (and rhetoric). There is free will and a sovereign God. One needs faith, but also faithfulness. All these different axis have a correct answer somewhere in the middle which is the answer intended by God. However you line up along these axis will in turn influence your definition of Jesus' salvation and your experience with Christianity. To expect that everyone holds the exact same position on all these complex issues is rather twisted. I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 popes who have had the same opinion on any one of those axis. Since you can't know until the end, pick a denomination that works for you, and experience life to the fullest.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby mrswdk on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 am

Some of the achievements of Catholicism over the centuries:

- Bomb plot to try and kill the English king and his entire government
- Brutal suppression of the French people eventually driving them to revolution
- Key ideological influence on Hitler during his formative years
- Appointed a Hitler Youth as pope
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:23 pm

So let's we just use this thread to post examples of Counter-Reformation art, okay?
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby betiko on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:35 pm

At least we catholics know that the bible is a scam and read it for fun.
You moronic huguenots take it a bit too seriously.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby mrswdk on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:44 pm

Replace the word ā€˜bibleā€™ with ā€˜Macronā€™ and read that post again.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:49 pm

I do have huge nuts, thanks for noticing.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby betiko on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:43 am

Wrong
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:34 am

betiko wrote:At least we catholics know that the bible is a scam and read it for fun.
You moronic huguenots take it a bit too seriously.


Bravo!

I was framing out a 1000-word essay making exactly that point.

You said it in two lines.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby KoolBak on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:07 am

I had to take 4 years of theology at the private catholic college I went to (keep in mind I'm an unbaptised heathen). I was dreading it....first day in class, this father is the teacher...his first words were "the bible is a work of fiction", much to the chagrin of all the good little catholic students :lol: turned out i loved the four years of theology....objective study of most of the main religions.

PS...Tzorro....WHY do you think I should read this? I have a shit ton of science fiction I think YOU should read as well :D
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AND:
riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:54 pm

I suppose this piece is really Proto-Counter-Reformation, but what the heck.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Nice.

Pretty boring conception of Hell, though. I much prefer Heironymous Bosch. There's a guy who could do Hell properly!
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:50 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
betiko wrote:At least we catholics know that the bible is a scam and read it for fun.
You moronic huguenots take it a bit too seriously.


Bravo!

I was framing out a 1000-word essay making exactly that point.

You said it in two lines.


Either way it isn't exactly true. One of the first Christians to call the Old Testament a scam was Marcion and he was deemed a heretic. More recently, almost all of the "liberal" theology is formed in Protestantism and then borrowed by the Catholics.

For example, Reimarus was a Protestant. He is famous for his idea that Jesus thought of himself as the Messiah, but at the cross he realized he wasn't and that is why he said "why have you forsaken me?" Then, his apostles "invented Christianity" simply because they didn't want to return to work.

Wellhausen was a Lutheran also. He came up with the "documentary hypothesis" that indicates that rather than being written by Moses, the Torah was stitched together over hundreds of years by disparate groups with differing aims. Tzor has mentioned that very hypothesis in this forum.

The Jesus Seminar was a Protestant thing too. That's the people who determined that the historical Jesus "Probably" said less than 20% of the words ascribed to him in the Bible.

The incarnational model of Scripture, the phrase "the bible isn't information, it's character formation", the debate over authorship of Paul's letters... these are all Protestant things.

The Nova Vulgata is based on texts by the (protestant) German Bible Society. So, if Catholics think the Bible is a scam anyways, why would they bother changing the Bible they use based on the currentest Protestant research?

Where can you find lesbians living in the rectory? The protestant church. Where can you find confirmed atheists as ordained ministers? The protestant church.

However, just like there is a spectrum of Protestant theologies, so there are a spectrum of Catholic theologies. The Jesuits were pretty much the original creationists, as they wanted to kill Galileo because the bible says the Sun stopped. Also, the Antiochians of olde, which influenced a lot of Catholic theology were biblical literalists (although their version of literal actually allowed for metaphor, which is a far more balanced position than mr. chiropractor).

Amongst those who think the Bible is a work of fiction, there is still a gamut of responses to that. Was it a work of fiction in that the people who wrote it were hallucinating? Were they trying to mislead people for unjust gain? Did they honestly think that they could help people? Were they just trying to write moral stories (like Aesop)? You can find all these positions and more in both Catholicism and Protestantism.

That was kind of my original point. To expect millions of people around the world to have the exact same theology is nuts. It's a lie because every Catholic priest has to swear that he believes and will teach "ALL the teachings of the church". I find it extremely unlikely that every bishop believes all those things. He can only believe them in a "I believe them because I am submitting to authority" kind of way. There's this false pretense that there is one big, happy Catholic church and that we are all offshoots of it. There is, but it isn't the Roman Catholic church. Also, I'll be honest, I haven't researched "all the teachings of the church" but I have yet to discover "the bible is a scam" as a papal bull. So congratulations for proving that you are Protestant betiko. But that's ok, because in reality Protestants and Catholics are really the same church. Most people just don't understand that.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:06 am

Godless Canadian Protestantism: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... h-canada...

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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:12 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:There was no mistake 2000 years ago. There is no evidence that Peter ever started the church at Rome.


That's quite an impressive straw man you have created there. I would recommend doing two things. Breathe with "both lungs" and stop reading executive summaries (they often oversimplify). The question of who "started" the church of Rome is interesting but actually meaningless and moot. It makes for a grand title but the notion of "Apostolic Succession" is based on the passing down of teaching, not on founding. The real question should be "Was Peter in Rome? Did he teach there? Did the Overseers of Rome pass down that teaching? Answer yes to all of this and BINGO. There is your answer.

Remember that founding isn't the criteria. If it were it would be tied with Antioch also founded by Peter in the same sense that Rome was; he taught there (along with Paul) and they passed down his teachings.

Now let's fast forward and breathe though the "other lung" (the Greek Speaking lung). Over time the Overseers (now known as Bishops) began to form a hierarchy. Overseers of larger area started calling themselves "Metropolitans." Then they were organized into four "Patriarchs." The Bishop of Rome, given that his "succession" came from Peter, and having the proper population to be a Metropolitan was listed as the First of the Patriarchs. In time he would be known as the "Patriarch of the West" although that title has since been officially dropped.

All of Europe was over the Patriarch of the West.

The Bishop of Rome insisted that ordering should be based on the apostolic succession. Constantinople insisted that it should be based on population and political power, which is why they elected their city as second in the list.

This is the keystone to the entire church. In the end someone has to be that keystone, getting the role that Jesus gave to Peter. If you look at acts, that role was complex (in the council at Jerusalem, Peter makes a speech, the rest consider and agree and it is the Overseer James who makes the final decision). It's also just as complex today as it was back then; one only has to see the current interplay in the church with the bishops and their "doubts" about the recent written statements of Francis.

Remember it was the "other lung" that came out with the profession that the ONE, holy, universal, and based on the Apostles, church was a dogma of faith that had to be held by all believers, (first proposed in Nicea and then in Constantinople) not Rome. The Reformation led to thousands of churches with completely different collection of creeds.


DoomYoshi wrote:That's an overly simplistic description of restorationism although there are some who hold that view exactly, it certainly isn't the view of all Protestants. Many "Catholics" did decry the prominence of the papacy through the generations. Have you already forgot the vitriolic discussion on papal infallibility less than 200 years ago? If there was no restoration 500 years ago why did Trent introduce such sweeping reforms?


The original Francis was given a direct message from God to "rebuild" the church since it was clearly falling apart. This was not an easy thing to do (it never is). Francis had to bash his head against the wall a number of times, but he did it with patience and was rewarded. You want to know the ironic joke? Francis was given one of three remaining copies of the old liturgy of Rome (one of which was in a state of bad repair) which was only used in Rome one day a year, and his priests were allowed to use it on a common basis. That liturgy eventually gets promoted to wider use. It's the "Tridentine" liturgy which lasted until the reforms of Vatican II.

Who is the real "reformer" here?

DoomYoshi wrote:One of the blessings of the reformation is the denominational system. Many decry that system since we all need to be "one in Christ" yet we still are one in Christ. There's an old joke that if you have 3 Christians in a room you will have 4 different opinions. The Bible contains many seeming contradictions. For example, the kingdom has come but it is still coming. The message is universal, but still has an ingroup/outgroup mentality (and rhetoric). There is free will and a sovereign God. One needs faith, but also faithfulness. All these different axis have a correct answer somewhere in the middle which is the answer intended by God. However you line up along these axis will in turn influence your definition of Jesus' salvation and your experience with Christianity. To expect that everyone holds the exact same position on all these complex issues is rather twisted. I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 popes who have had the same opinion on any one of those axis. Since you can't know until the end, pick a denomination that works for you, and experience life to the fullest.


That's not a blessing; that's a curse. It's the same reason why you will never have (in the long run) "moderate" Islam, because with no central authority to state that something isn't correct (orthodox) the most extreme with the greatest forces will constantly wage war with each other. "Pick a denomination that works for you?" That makes about as much sense as "Pick a science that works for you." (If you like your earth flat, pick that. If you like your earth round, pick that.) Jesus promised us that he would not leave us orphans; there is one truth and one truth only. There is no "pick a truth."
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:13 pm

KoolBak wrote:I had to take 4 years of theology at the private catholic college I went to


My condolences. Very few of these are really "catholic" these days. :twisted:
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:20 pm

mrswdk wrote:Some of the achievements of Catholicism over the centuries:


That's it? A completely thrown out of context terrorist which became mostly a "fake news" story of the time?

Rich Priests and Bishops who sided with the ruling class? (Seriously, the problem in Ireland was far worse than France; the later was only more known because it was used as a excuse when the pagan revolutionaries wanted to stir up the people in the worship of the Goddess of Reason.)

Hitler was a complete wack job but he got more of his mojo from pagan myths than Catholic.

I supposed it would have been proper to just KILL ALL THE GERMAN CHILDREN at the end of WWII? :twisted:

I mean it's not like actually assisted in the killing of Christians like Saul of Tarsus. (Who became the Apostle to the Gentiles)
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:23 pm

tzor wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:There was no mistake 2000 years ago. There is no evidence that Peter ever started the church at Rome.


That's quite an impressive straw man you have created there. I would recommend doing two things. Breathe with "both lungs" and stop reading executive summaries (they often oversimplify). The question of who "started" the church of Rome is interesting but actually meaningless and moot. It makes for a grand title but the notion of "Apostolic Succession" is based on the passing down of teaching, not on founding. The real question should be "Was Peter in Rome? Did he teach there? Did the Overseers of Rome pass down that teaching? Answer yes to all of this and BINGO. There is your answer.

Remember that founding isn't the criteria. If it were it would be tied with Antioch also founded by Peter in the same sense that Rome was; he taught there (along with Paul) and they passed down his teachings.

Now let's fast forward and breathe though the "other lung" (the Greek Speaking lung). Over time the Overseers (now known as Bishops) began to form a hierarchy. Overseers of larger area started calling themselves "Metropolitans." Then they were organized into four "Patriarchs." The Bishop of Rome, given that his "succession" came from Peter, and having the proper population to be a Metropolitan was listed as the First of the Patriarchs. In time he would be known as the "Patriarch of the West" although that title has since been officially dropped.

All of Europe was over the Patriarch of the West.

The Bishop of Rome insisted that ordering should be based on the apostolic succession. Constantinople insisted that it should be based on population and political power, which is why they elected their city as second in the list.



So you acknowledge that the idea of Rome being the solitary place for Peter's apostolic succession was foreign to Peter and came much later.

This is the keystone to the entire church. In the end someone has to be that keystone, getting the role that Jesus gave to Peter. If you look at acts, that role was complex (in the council at Jerusalem, Peter makes a speech, the rest consider and agree and it is the Overseer James who makes the final decision). It's also just as complex today as it was back then; one only has to see the current interplay in the church with the bishops and their "doubts" about the recent written statements of Francis.



No one person has to be that keystone. Why did Jesus appoint twelve apostles? Why are all twelve promised seats in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Remember it was the "other lung" that came out with the profession that the ONE, holy, universal, and based on the Apostles, church was a dogma of faith that had to be held by all believers, (first proposed in Nicea and then in Constantinople) not Rome. The Reformation led to thousands of churches with completely different collection of creeds.


DoomYoshi wrote:That's an overly simplistic description of restorationism although there are some who hold that view exactly, it certainly isn't the view of all Protestants. Many "Catholics" did decry the prominence of the papacy through the generations. Have you already forgot the vitriolic discussion on papal infallibility less than 200 years ago? If there was no restoration 500 years ago why did Trent introduce such sweeping reforms?


The original Francis was given a direct message from God to "rebuild" the church since it was clearly falling apart. This was not an easy thing to do (it never is). Francis had to bash his head against the wall a number of times, but he did it with patience and was rewarded. You want to know the ironic joke? Francis was given one of three remaining copies of the old liturgy of Rome (one of which was in a state of bad repair) which was only used in Rome one day a year, and his priests were allowed to use it on a common basis. That liturgy eventually gets promoted to wider use. It's the "Tridentine" liturgy which lasted until the reforms of Vatican II.

Who is the real "reformer" here?

DoomYoshi wrote:One of the blessings of the reformation is the denominational system. Many decry that system since we all need to be "one in Christ" yet we still are one in Christ. There's an old joke that if you have 3 Christians in a room you will have 4 different opinions. The Bible contains many seeming contradictions. For example, the kingdom has come but it is still coming. The message is universal, but still has an ingroup/outgroup mentality (and rhetoric). There is free will and a sovereign God. One needs faith, but also faithfulness. All these different axis have a correct answer somewhere in the middle which is the answer intended by God. However you line up along these axis will in turn influence your definition of Jesus' salvation and your experience with Christianity. To expect that everyone holds the exact same position on all these complex issues is rather twisted. I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 popes who have had the same opinion on any one of those axis. Since you can't know until the end, pick a denomination that works for you, and experience life to the fullest.


That's not a blessing; that's a curse. It's the same reason why you will never have (in the long run) "moderate" Islam, because with no central authority to state that something isn't correct (orthodox) the most extreme with the greatest forces will constantly wage war with each other. "Pick a denomination that works for you?" That makes about as much sense as "Pick a science that works for you." (If you like your earth flat, pick that. If you like your earth round, pick that.) Jesus promised us that he would not leave us orphans; there is one truth and one truth only. There is no "pick a truth."


Central authority doesn't actually have anything to do with truth. The Catholic position is not based on theology. The Catholic position is that unless you acknowledge that the pope is the vicar of Christ on Earth, then you aren't a Christian. It has nothing to do with truth. As you mentioned above, there are still debates in Catholicism. One thing that is never debated is the primacy of the pope. That's the chiefest difference between Catholics and Protestants. If it was about theology, there wouldn't be that back and forth borrowing and arguing about theology. In South America and Africa, Protestants and Catholics both kill homosexuals without a trial. In North America, they don't. The Christian experience is obviously very local and always will be.

Stop reading executive summaries.


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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:37 pm

Mind your Mannerists!
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby betiko on Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:43 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
tzor wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:There was no mistake 2000 years ago. There is no evidence that Peter ever started the church at Rome.


That's quite an impressive straw man you have created there. I would recommend doing two things. Breathe with "both lungs" and stop reading executive summaries (they often oversimplify). The question of who "started" the church of Rome is interesting but actually meaningless and moot. It makes for a grand title but the notion of "Apostolic Succession" is based on the passing down of teaching, not on founding. The real question should be "Was Peter in Rome? Did he teach there? Did the Overseers of Rome pass down that teaching? Answer yes to all of this and BINGO. There is your answer.

Remember that founding isn't the criteria. If it were it would be tied with Antioch also founded by Peter in the same sense that Rome was; he taught there (along with Paul) and they passed down his teachings.

Now let's fast forward and breathe though the "other lung" (the Greek Speaking lung). Over time the Overseers (now known as Bishops) began to form a hierarchy. Overseers of larger area started calling themselves "Metropolitans." Then they were organized into four "Patriarchs." The Bishop of Rome, given that his "succession" came from Peter, and having the proper population to be a Metropolitan was listed as the First of the Patriarchs. In time he would be known as the "Patriarch of the West" although that title has since been officially dropped.

All of Europe was over the Patriarch of the West.

The Bishop of Rome insisted that ordering should be based on the apostolic succession. Constantinople insisted that it should be based on population and political power, which is why they elected their city as second in the list.



So you acknowledge that the idea of Rome being the solitary place for Peter's apostolic succession was foreign to Peter and came much later.

This is the keystone to the entire church. In the end someone has to be that keystone, getting the role that Jesus gave to Peter. If you look at acts, that role was complex (in the council at Jerusalem, Peter makes a speech, the rest consider and agree and it is the Overseer James who makes the final decision). It's also just as complex today as it was back then; one only has to see the current interplay in the church with the bishops and their "doubts" about the recent written statements of Francis.



No one person has to be that keystone. Why did Jesus appoint twelve apostles? Why are all twelve promised seats in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Remember it was the "other lung" that came out with the profession that the ONE, holy, universal, and based on the Apostles, church was a dogma of faith that had to be held by all believers, (first proposed in Nicea and then in Constantinople) not Rome. The Reformation led to thousands of churches with completely different collection of creeds.


DoomYoshi wrote:That's an overly simplistic description of restorationism although there are some who hold that view exactly, it certainly isn't the view of all Protestants. Many "Catholics" did decry the prominence of the papacy through the generations. Have you already forgot the vitriolic discussion on papal infallibility less than 200 years ago? If there was no restoration 500 years ago why did Trent introduce such sweeping reforms?


The original Francis was given a direct message from God to "rebuild" the church since it was clearly falling apart. This was not an easy thing to do (it never is). Francis had to bash his head against the wall a number of times, but he did it with patience and was rewarded. You want to know the ironic joke? Francis was given one of three remaining copies of the old liturgy of Rome (one of which was in a state of bad repair) which was only used in Rome one day a year, and his priests were allowed to use it on a common basis. That liturgy eventually gets promoted to wider use. It's the "Tridentine" liturgy which lasted until the reforms of Vatican II.

Who is the real "reformer" here?

DoomYoshi wrote:One of the blessings of the reformation is the denominational system. Many decry that system since we all need to be "one in Christ" yet we still are one in Christ. There's an old joke that if you have 3 Christians in a room you will have 4 different opinions. The Bible contains many seeming contradictions. For example, the kingdom has come but it is still coming. The message is universal, but still has an ingroup/outgroup mentality (and rhetoric). There is free will and a sovereign God. One needs faith, but also faithfulness. All these different axis have a correct answer somewhere in the middle which is the answer intended by God. However you line up along these axis will in turn influence your definition of Jesus' salvation and your experience with Christianity. To expect that everyone holds the exact same position on all these complex issues is rather twisted. I doubt there are more than 2 or 3 popes who have had the same opinion on any one of those axis. Since you can't know until the end, pick a denomination that works for you, and experience life to the fullest.


That's not a blessing; that's a curse. It's the same reason why you will never have (in the long run) "moderate" Islam, because with no central authority to state that something isn't correct (orthodox) the most extreme with the greatest forces will constantly wage war with each other. "Pick a denomination that works for you?" That makes about as much sense as "Pick a science that works for you." (If you like your earth flat, pick that. If you like your earth round, pick that.) Jesus promised us that he would not leave us orphans; there is one truth and one truth only. There is no "pick a truth."


Central authority doesn't actually have anything to do with truth. The Catholic position is not based on theology. The Catholic position is that unless you acknowledge that the pope is the vicar of Christ on Earth, then you aren't a Christian. It has nothing to do with truth. As you mentioned above, there are still debates in Catholicism. One thing that is never debated is the primacy of the pope. That's the chiefest difference between Catholics and Protestants. If it was about theology, there wouldn't be that back and forth borrowing and arguing about theology. In South America and Africa, Protestants and Catholics both kill homosexuals without a trial. In North America, they don't. The Christian experience is obviously very local and always will be.

Stop reading executive summaries.


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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:20 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:So you acknowledge that the idea of Rome being the solitary place for Peter's apostolic succession was foreign to Peter and came much later.


You seem to be hopelessly hung up on this point. I will definitely acknowledge that your strange hangup on "solitary place" comes later.

DoomYoshi wrote:No one person has to be that keystone. Why did Jesus appoint twelve apostles? Why are all twelve promised seats in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel?


Twelve is important because of the twelve tribes and mostly because the number was thought to represent completeness. However Jesus does more with Peter than with the other eleven. During his ministry he gives the "keys" to Peter and then after the resurrection (post Peter's three time denial of him) he gives him the three fold commission.

Remember that Peter and the others were "apostles" (one who is sent). This differs from Overseers. There are no apostles alive today. All "public" revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. The issue is the structure of the Overseers. If the Apostles have a hierarchy, why should the overseers not?

DoomYoshi wrote:Central authority doesn't actually have anything to do with truth. The Catholic position is not based on theology. The Catholic position is that unless you acknowledge that the pope is the vicar of Christ on Earth, then you aren't a Christian. It has nothing to do with truth.


But wait a second. The term "vicar" means representative. In Catholic nomenclature all the "bishops" are representatives or "vicars" of Christ and the Pope is a bishop. No seriously, to quote from the Catechism ...

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.

DoomYoshi wrote:As you mentioned above, there are still debates in Catholicism. One thing that is never debated is the primacy of the pope. That's the chiefest difference between Catholics and Protestants. If it was about theology, there wouldn't be that back and forth borrowing and arguing about theology. In South America and Africa, Protestants and Catholics both kill homosexuals without a trial. In North America, they don't. The Christian experience is obviously very local and always will be.


It's more than whose number one. (Primacy definition, by the way.) At least we don't say "that would be telling." The biggest difference is that Catholics have one number one and Protestants have millions of them. Every Protestant is their own Pope. Every Protestant is their own supreme authority on what has been passed down from the Apostles, only they don't care about what is passed down from the Apostles (except for a few epistles) but from the Evangelists and their own interpretation of the Old Testament.

By the way, can you give a solid link on the allegation of "Catholics" killing homosexuals in Africa without a trial? I'm pretty sure that is in violation of Catholic tradition, but obviously in the everything goes world of Protestantism it's perfectly fine for someone else to do it. Why you think that some people randomly killing other people in one part of the world and not in the other is a good thing is totally beyond me. Is there a different God in Africa and South America? I think not. God is God always and everywhere.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:51 pm

If nothing else, it is a grateful reprieve from those huge blocks of turgid text.
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That translucent figure at the base of that row of columns is the most intriguing part. Note the third foot.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby tzor on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:15 pm

You are so lucky that I don't do forum moderation T. Next time, PLEASE USE BIGIMG.
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Re: And now the Catholic Counterpoint to 500 years ago.

Postby Thorthoth on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:17 pm

tzor wrote:You are so lucky that I don't do forum moderation T. Next time, PLEASE USE BIGIMG.

But the epic grandeur is lost when the image is downsized. The oversized scale is not an error, but rather an intentional part of my creative vision.
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