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Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

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Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:38 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/03/14/gina-haspels-nomination-for-cia-director-is-a-test-of-americas-conscience/?utm_term=.b6c9e94abc70
In the aftermath of 9/11, amid widespread fear of more large-scale attacks, the Bush administration ordered the CIA to begin torturing captured al-Qaeda suspects. The CIA had almost no experience in interrogation, and as it struggled to figure out the best way to go about it, the agency turned to a pair of psychologist contractors who themselves had zero experience in interrogation. The psychologists ended up relying in large part on their study of the torture suffered by American POWs in the Korean and Vietnam wars to devise a program the CIA would now use on prisoners.

Because torture is against the law, the administration tasked some of its lawyers with writing a series of memos that would claim that whatever it was doing to its prisoners wouldnā€™t actually qualify as ā€œtorture.ā€ To read these memos is to descend into a bizarre and horrifying world of legalistic brutality. Among their claims are that it canā€™t be torture if the president orders it. That torture is only torture if causing pain is itself the ā€œspecific intent,ā€ so it canā€™t be torture if you do it to gain information. And that it isnā€™t torture unless what you inflict rises ā€œto the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function.ā€

This was all presented under the absurd euphemism ā€œenhanced interrogation,ā€ which the Bush administration invented to convince the public that there was something thoughtful and careful about what they were doing, and which some people continue to use today. Iā€™m sure than in Haspelā€™s confirmation hearings, weā€™ll hear it many times.

But it wasnā€™t ā€œenhanced interrogation,ā€ or ā€œharsh interrogation methods,ā€ or ā€œrough interrogation.ā€ It was torture. Torture is defined clearly in both U.S. law and the U.N. Convention Against Torture, to which the United States is a signatory: Itā€™s the intentional infliction of intense physical and/or mental suffering for such purposes as extracting information or a confession. No one has ever articulated what differentiates ā€œenhanced interrogationā€ from torture, because itā€™s impossible.

In order to keep its treatment of prisoners as far from the reaches of U.S. law and U.S. courts as possible, the CIA set up a number of ā€œblack sitesā€ in allied countries around the world. One of them, in Thailand, was overseen by Gina Haspel. Among the prisoners there was an al-Qaeda suspect known as Abu Zubaidah, who was tortured extensively. As a Senate report subsequently explained, he was subjected to waterboarding and extended use of stress positions, which are designed to produce excruciating pain.

At Haspelā€™s site and elsewhere, prisoners were also beaten, hung from their wrists, made to stand for extended periods, subjected to freezing temperatures, deprived of sleep and subjected to mock executions, in addition to stress positions. There are still living Americans who were subjected to stress positions in Vietnamese POW camps; you can ask them whether stress positions are torture.




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/14/rand-paul-gina-haspel-cia-director-torture-gleeful-joy
The Republican senator Rand Paul said on Wednesday he would oppose Donald Trumpā€™s nomination of Gina Haspel for director of the CIA, accusing her of having shown ā€œjoyful gleeā€ during the torture of terrorism suspects.

Paul also announced that he would try to block the presidentā€™s nomination of the current CIA director, Mike Pompeo, to succeed Rex Tillerson as secretary of state.

The Kentucky senatorā€™s stance could be especially awkward for Haspel, who is under scrutiny for reportedly overseeing a secret CIA prison in Thailand where detainees endured so-called enhanced interrogation techniques.

ā€œTo really appoint the head cheerleader for waterboarding to be head of the CIA?ā€ Paul told reporters on Capitol Hill. ā€œI mean, how could you trust somebody who did that to be in charge of the CIA? To read of her glee during the waterboarding is just absolutely appalling.ā€



https://news.google.com/news/video/ZpDc1hscfeQ/d8otrI-IqED5rvM5NV6dHxWb0qNvM?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ned=ca
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby KoolBak on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Once again, you've shamed our entire country Duk! Wooohooo!!!
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca

AND:
riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:49 pm

KoolBak wrote:Once again, you've shamed our entire country Duk! Wooohooo!!!



You think so? I think there's a good chance the Senate will find it's spine and reject this nomination.


And in any case, no I didn't shame your whole country. I'm pretty confident that the majority of Americans do not support torturing prisoners. At least not if you tell them what it really is, and don't hide behind euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation."
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:51 pm

Gina Haspel is the first female director of the CIA. Therefore, anyone who opposes her appointment hates women and is a misogynist.

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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:54 pm

The Republicans won't even force Trump to enact stronger sanctions against Russia that was passed by Congress. Trump has been compromised by the Russians and the Republican Congress is helping to obstruct justice and protect Trump from the Mueller investigation.

The Republicans will lose big this November and we can proceed to impeach Trump, unless Mueller indicts Trump before that.

Ryan is part of the problem of loading the Trump administration with Oligarchs and morons.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:58 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Gina Haspel is the first female director of the CIA. Therefore, anyone who opposes her appointment hates women and is a misogynist.

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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:03 pm

The denocrats won't do shit. They're spineless.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby armati on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:20 pm

Trump is a zionist neocon.
America first is BS, it is Israel first.

The democrats being spineless is not the reason they will do nothing, the reason is because there is only one political party, dems/repubs, same thing.
Its known as the two headed snake.

If voting made any dif, people would not be allowed to vote.

They are putting a torturer at the head of the cia because they are sick fs.
The same sick fs that killed 500 thousand children in Iraq or degraded the most prosperous country in africa into open air slave markets, the list goes on and on.

Russia may have just had enough and drawn their red line, so far, I havnt seen Putin bluff.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm

The reason is not that they are a single party. The reason is that they are all paid for. The parties are slightly different, but they are almost all owned by one corporation or another.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:28 pm

Also Trump doesn't give a f*ck about Israel. Trump couldn't find Israel on a map of Israel. He's demented. The people riding Trump are the zionists.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:41 am

Simple minds think alike....
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby mrswdk on Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:53 am

saxitoxin wrote:Gina Haspel is the first female director of the CIA. Therefore, anyone who opposes her appointment hates women and is a misogynist.

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Yeah, when men did it in the 00s it was just 'enhanced interrogation', but when Gina does it now it's 'extensive torture'.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby armati on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:48 pm

@Neoteny

"Trump couldn't find Israel on a map of Israel"
Are you aware Trump went to Israel and kissed their ass at the wailing wall? even wore a beanie.

"Trump doesn't give a f*ck about Israel"
Ever hear of aipac?
Trump going to Israel should tell you the statement "Trump doesnt care about Israel" is slightly misguided.

It IS a two headed snake, there is no dif, you did get the 'bought and paid for'correct but it is still the same party..or should I say club?

Its a big club and YOU AINT IN IT.

Same party, same wars, same federal reserve.

Doesnt care about Israel?
Take the time and check out the Yinon plan and tell me americans are dying for "america first"

What was it Jack Nicholson said? "You cant handle the truth" I think he was right.

There sure seems to be a hellofalot of people avoiding it anyway.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby armati on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:58 pm

A pce of a thread, might be too in depth for cc but what the heck.
People deserve at least the opportunity to have their eyes opened.
By the Way, the Moriarity guy is an american veteran that flew as far back as vietnam, alot of missions, he is also an author.
the art of peace and nobody knows anything.

On March 14, 2018 at 12:40 pm,
Robert Moriarty says:
Al/Jim M:

How could you conclude Trumpā€™s actions reflect ā€œAmerica First?ā€ He just turned the state department over to AIPAC. This is ā€œIsrael Firstā€ not America First.

As an international businessman Tillerson realized it is important to keep to the deals you agree to. Everyone in the world except for the Mossad recognizes that (1) Iran never had a nuclear weapons program and (2) they agreed to stop all work that could have led to a nuclear weapons program in exchange for the US to open up the banking system to them and return the money that the US had seized. When Trump talks about giving Iran $150 billion, heā€™s talking about giving them their own money back.

Iran stuck to the deal. The US didnā€™t. Even Europe which is also under the thumb of the Zionists is against the US unilaterally dumping the deal.

The same war mongers that brought us Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Niger want to attack Iran. Well, as a guy who has been there and done that, there is not a way in hell the US and or Israel can defeat a country of 80 million people without using nukes.

I think China and Russia have drawn a line in the sand and the idiots working for Trump are about to cross it to their and our peril. When a US commander says that US troops are ready to die for Israel, we do need to put the US first. Our kids have been dying for Israel for 17 years. Let Israel fight their own stupid wars.

Tillerson was a sole breath of sanity in the kindergarten we call Washington.

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On March 14, 2018 at 2:14 pm,
BDC says:
The Mossad recognizes it,
but chaos is their seed
and war is their harvest.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:02 pm

Man, look at all those dog-whistles. I expect nobody in your neighborhood is sleeping tonight. I'm no defender of Israel nor of America's relationship with them in particular and the middle east in general, but hoo boy. There's a space on the economic right that feels separate from your normal Pepes and Anime Nazis but still has that insidious undercurrent, and, uh, you're right on in there huh?

In particular that line about Tillerson as "a sole breath lf sanity" in Washington is a bizarre headspace for me. The man is a gargoyle and any positions he takes to "put America first" are transparently in pursuit of his own interests. Letting Israel fight their own wars goes just as easily for Saudi Arabia, whose murderous intent in Yemen is fully supported by ol' Rex.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby tzor on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 pm

So let's see the mess I see here. Duk cites the Washington Compost and a few messages later the monkeys are throwing shit all over the place.
If I had a f*ck left, I would give it. I don't so I won't.
This is the mind of liberals these days; especially Democrats ... the irony of that can't be ignored.
The party of slavery. The party of Japanese American internment camps.
The party that still ignores the minority on minority gang violence in the urban cities under THEIR CONTROL.

OMG, she tortured fanatic religious zealots who wanted to destroy America and she liked it. (Allegedly)

YOU WANT TORTURE? WHY NOT ASK THEM? ISIS TORTURE METHODS REVEALED: SITTING WITH SEVERED HEADS, FUEL DOUSING AND THE 'FLYING CARPET'

And you complain about waterboarding?
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:12 pm

tzor wrote:So let's see the mess I see here. Duk cites the Washington Compost

... known to anyone except right-wingers as America's Jiminy Cricket, but please, do go on...


tzor wrote:and a few messages later the monkeys are throwing shit all over the place.
If I had a f*ck left, I would give it. I don't so I won't.
This is the mind of liberals these days; especially Democrats ... the irony of that can't be ignored.
The party of slavery. The party of Japanese American internment camps.
The party that still ignores the minority on minority gang violence in the urban cities under THEIR CONTROL.

We've gone through all this. There's nobody active in the Democratic Party of today who supported slavery or Japanese internment camps. All the white supremacists of the old Democratic party tore up their memberships and moved over to the Republican party in the '60s or at the latest in the early '70s. They're your friends now.

As for inner city violence, it's a direct result of the (bipartisan) War on Drugs. Allow people safe and legal supply chains to get their drugs and the gangs' source of funding goes away and the gangs go away in six months. The last time America was consumed by gang violence, in the early 30s, the government was wise enough to repeal Prohibition and the gangs went away. That's all it takes; stop criminalizing people's entertainment choices and the gangs that supply them have no reason to exist. But I digress.

Bottom line, I don't care about your petty feuds between the Demlicans and Repocrats. On most issues they march in lockstep, and the disagreements between them are mostly about hollow propaganda nonsense like whether the Ten Commandments should be posted on the wall in front of the courthouse. All the really big fights between them are about who's going to be in charge of distributing the pork. All these wild apoplectic screaming matches about "the Repocrats did this!" and "the Demlicans did that!" are completely ridiculous to an outsider looking in. What an outsider sees is that you have two parties that agree on 90% of everything, and on that last 10% are whipping up hysterical hatred over issues that could easily be negotiated out, if it weren't for the fact that your political circus needs hysteria to function. It's like the WWF and its phony conflicts. Whoever is in the other party is the current Iron Sheik.

All that shouldn't matter. When someone commits a crime, do you ask who they voted for before you choose their punishment?

The party politics circus shouldn't be an issue when considering a high-level appointment. Ethical considerations should be something that one takes more seriously than party loyalties and squabbles over the pork barrel. Gina Haskel is not only a sadist, she is more importantly a scofflaw who believes the CIA should be free to do whatever it wants without civilian oversight. Basically, to emulate the KGB. She ordered the destruction of evidence while holding in her hand an order from a federal court to turn the evidence over. That kind of blatant contempt for the rule of law should scare the shit out of you, utterly regardless of any party loyalties.

tzor wrote:OMG, she tortured fanatic religious zealots who wanted to destroy America and she liked it. (Allegedly)

I'm not convinced that all the men she tortured were religious zealots, nor am I convinced that all of them wanted to destroy America. No doubt some were, but a great many of the prisoners taken in Afghanistan were ordinary foot soldiers fighting for ordinary reasons, because their country was invaded and their (lawfully constituted) government sent them into battle. I could go on a rant here about the hypocrisy of a nation that invades a foreign country on a trumped-up pretext and then labels the foreign nationals "terrorists" when they try to defend themselves. It's not directly relevant and probably counterproductive, so I'll just leave it at that.

What is directly relevant is that torture is against the laws of the U.S., as well as a violation of many international treaties that the U.S. is signatory to. Bush and the CIA deliberately subverted the law, base on some really bogus legal arguments. They knew their arguments were bogus, which is why they hid their activities in black sites deep in the jungles of Thailand and other places. If they hadn't been blatantly violating the law, they could have brought the prisoners to a prison in the U.S. and interrogated them in accordance with normal law.

The man at the centre of Haskel's main torture scandal, Zubaydah was not found guilty of terrorism. After 16 years in jail, he still has not been charged with ANY crime. Haskel's report concluded that he had no useful information to give. After weeks of incredibly cruel torture, he was a broken man, completely subservient, but he still hadn't given up any useful intel because he just didn't have any to give. But even if he had reams of intel to provide, at what point are you willing to accept that the end does not justify the means? That torture of prisoners is not acceptable in a democratic society, no matter how strong the temptation or how valuable the goods to be procured?

More importantly, at what point should duly-elected Senators decide that the end does not justify the means, and that people who don't care about things like ethics don't belong in high office?

To me, though, the more compelling argument for why the Senate should not confirm this woman is not the torture itself, disgusting as that is. It is the fact that she ordered the records of the torture to be shredded, after she was already in possession of a court order to turn those records over. People shred evidence all the time, and it's certainly wrong, but they can always pretend, with more or less success, that they didn't know it was important enough to keep. But she already had the subpenoa in hand! Her shredding of the evidence was a massive, huge, gargantuan "UP YOURS!" to the rule of law. She couldn't have communicated her character more clearly if she hired a skywriter to write "Spies can do whateverthefuck they want! We don't give a shit what the law says!"


No shit, Sherlock! ISIS is fucking evil! What was your first clue? Is this really your argument, that it's okay for us to be evil because the enemy is evil? I don't know where you went to school, but where I went to school I was taught that "the other kids are doing it" is not a valid defense. Two wrongs don't make a right! If your strategy for fighting evil is to become evil and "fight fire with fire" then evil has already won. You may as well just surrender.

tzor wrote:And you complain about waterboarding?

Waterboarding was developed by the Imperial Japanese Army in WWII. You HANGED their people for war crimes when they tortured prisoners. Now you want to emulate them?
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:47 pm

armati wrote:@Neoteny

"Trump couldn't find Israel on a map of Israel"
Are you aware Trump went to Israel and kissed their ass at the wailing wall? even wore a beanie.

"Trump doesn't give a f*ck about Israel"
Ever hear of aipac?
Trump going to Israel should tell you the statement "Trump doesnt care about Israel" is slightly misguided.

It IS a two headed snake, there is no dif, you did get the 'bought and paid for'correct but it is still the same party..or should I say club?

Its a big club and YOU AINT IN IT.

Same party, same wars, same federal reserve.

Doesnt care about Israel?
Take the time and check out the Yinon plan and tell me americans are dying for "america first"

What was it Jack Nicholson said? "You cant handle the truth" I think he was right.

There sure seems to be a hellofalot of people avoiding it anyway.


Of course everyone agrees Israel is the enemy of the world, however, resolution of the Israeli problem is going to happen on a long time scale, not overnight. A Trump presidency is the best to advance this objective.

Republican support for Israel is rock solid while Democratic support for Israel is adjustable based on their current power status.

Specifically:
    - a Democratic government will always have high levels of support for Israel (Zionist scoring level 1) while a Democratic opposition will always have low levels of support for Israel (Z-Score 0)
    - a Republican government will always have high levels of support for Israel (Z-Score 1) while a Republican opposition will always have high levels of support for Israel (Z-Score 1)
Therefore, Israel benefits most when there is a Democratic government as the total Z-Score is 2 (they have unanimous support from all power centers). When there is a Republican government the total Z-Score is only 1 (they experience at least some resistance).

Now, of course, GOP support for Israel is based on the fact that - since 1980 - they've needed votes from the 22% of the population who are Evangelicals or they're toast. In the long-run, the GOP needs to diversify its voting base to free itself from the Evangelical nutters at which point Israel can be unceremoniously dumped over the side of the boat.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:16 pm

Cromwell had to compromise a lot, and had rough going, but - in the long run - he was successful in purging England of its problems. Trump can do the same if we have patience and don't expect miracles.

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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby armati on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:00 pm

Duk
I agree, but you dont go far enough.
Americans should be scared shitless, they believe it is not them at risk, check out the N.D.A.A.(bye bye who ever they want..nope no phone call sorry)


saxitoxin
At least you have a thought out argument, I happen to disagree, but an argument it is.
Meaning, you didnt jump to antisemitism, I am not anti anyone other than "dickheads"

You point out there could be a dif between dems and repubs concerning Israel

https://youtu.be/lxlAbVqOUpQ

Watch a fast forwarded 4 min standing o and tell me you can spot a dif. between repubs and dems.
Recall he got 29 standing ovations.......29.

Who do those guys serve?
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:27 pm

armati wrote:Duk
I agree, but you dont go far enough.
Americans should be scared shitless, they believe it is not them at risk, check out the N.D.A.A.(bye bye who ever they want..nope no phone call sorry)


saxitoxin
At least you have a thought out argument, I happen to disagree, but an argument it is.
Meaning, you didnt jump to antisemitism, I am not anti anyone other than "dickheads"

You point out there could be a dif between dems and repubs concerning Israel

https://youtu.be/lxlAbVqOUpQ

Watch a fast forwarded 4 min standing o and tell me you can spot a dif. between repubs and dems.
Recall he got 29 standing ovations.......29.

Who do those guys serve?


Yes, but this was during a period of Democratic government. As I said ...

    - a Democratic government will always have high levels of support for Israel (Zionist scoring level 1) while a Democratic opposition will always have low levels of support for Israel (Z-Score 0)

When Democrats are in power they need support from AIPAC to stay there. Once they've lost power they need support from their base - which is largely anti-Zionist - to return to power. So the Democrats are a predictable pendulum.

Republicans need support from AIPAC whether they're in power or not.

Ergo, it's always most beneficial to Israel to have a Democratic president because then there is no significant domestic criticism of Israel. When there's a Republican president it's least beneficial to Israel because powerful voices then opportunistically begin denouncing Israel which erodes public support. Therefore, we must support Republican presidencies since they indirectly do the most harm to Israel.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:28 pm

Haha nice
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:49 pm

armati wrote:At least you have a thought out argument, I happen to disagree, but an argument it is.
Meaning, you didnt jump to antisemitism, I am not anti anyone other than "dickheads"


I mean, you're the one copypasting from the comments section of weird rightist radio shows and howling about how the zionists are in control of US government. It's one of those fixations people have that don't really earn serious consideration. Combined with weird fed obsessions and its some real turner diaries level shit. If you think the only person taking you seriously is Saxitoxin, then you are in for a world of hurt buddy. And on this hellsite, that's saying something.

So don't whine like a bitch when you get called on your bullshit. f*ck Israel, but f*ck anyone who defends Rex Tillerson too.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby armati on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:04 pm

Neoteny
Had to re read the posts to figure out what your talkin about.

No idea what this is "some real turner diaries level shit".I havnt seen the show or vid I guess.

No Idea what your talkin about with this "If you think the only person taking you seriously is Saxitoxin, then you are in for a world of hurt buddy."
"you're the one copypasting from the comments section" Whats your point?

"howling about how the zionists are in control of US government." A silly comment really, I dont believe you understand what a zionist is, maybe your simply ill informed.

I suppose by "called on your bullshit" you mean your upset because your not a member of "the" club.
Or maybe I just pointed out where you were "bonkers" sorry, I didnt intend being abrasive.

As for Tillerson, "a sole breath of sanity" does not mean he likes Tillerson, it means what he said, that the U.S. should keep its word and not start a war with Iran.

Yup "weird rightist radio shows" whats strange is ya gotta find the idea of integrity and peace on wierd rightist radio shows and not the guys running the nation.

Your comments tell me you havnt checked out the Yinon Plan.

saxitoxin

You may have a point about the Dems, but ya gotta admit, they all look pretty pro Netinyahoo.
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Re: Will America's Conscience Please Stand Up?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:30 am

saxitoxin wrote:
armati wrote:Duk
I agree, but you dont go far enough.
Americans should be scared shitless, they believe it is not them at risk, check out the N.D.A.A.(bye bye who ever they want..nope no phone call sorry)


saxitoxin
At least you have a thought out argument, I happen to disagree, but an argument it is.
Meaning, you didnt jump to antisemitism, I am not anti anyone other than "dickheads"

You point out there could be a dif between dems and repubs concerning Israel

https://youtu.be/lxlAbVqOUpQ

Watch a fast forwarded 4 min standing o and tell me you can spot a dif. between repubs and dems.
Recall he got 29 standing ovations.......29.

Who do those guys serve?


Yes, but this was during a period of Democratic government. As I said ...

    - a Democratic government will always have high levels of support for Israel (Zionist scoring level 1) while a Democratic opposition will always have low levels of support for Israel (Z-Score 0)

When Democrats are in power they need support from AIPAC to stay there. Once they've lost power they need support from their base - which is largely anti-Zionist - to return to power. So the Democrats are a predictable pendulum.

Republicans need support from AIPAC whether they're in power or not.

Ergo, it's always most beneficial to Israel to have a Democratic president because then there is no significant domestic criticism of Israel. When there's a Republican president it's least beneficial to Israel because powerful voices then opportunistically begin denouncing Israel which erodes public support. Therefore, we must support Republican presidencies since they indirectly do the most harm to Israel.


Such jibberish......really now.....have you heard how Trump is building a magnificent American Embassy in Jerusalem?

You and Saxi, are just a bunch of Putin dik suckers! Even our traitorous President can't stop America, NATO and other democracies from condemning Putin's sloppy attempt to murder a Russian and his daughter in England.

Putin and Trump are only concerned about enriching themselves and their Oligarch allies.
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