Norway party to seek ban on Islamic call to prayer

[Neoteny]

Hey man, if you were offended then you could have just said so.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'll give you some context in annoyance factor. Both of my deployments had this "Prayer Call" every...single...day.

Imagine every morning at dawn, which can be anywhere between 5am to 7am, a loud speaker in your neighborhood blaring in Arabic for the call to prayer. This isn't just some ten second broadcast, these prayer calls last from anywhere to ten minutes to an hour.

Proceed on to noonish, loud speakers blaring the same thing again. So you can be at work, listening to this drivel, or a family picnic outside, or at home beating the wife and fucking the dog, whatever, and this shit starts going off.

Lastly, dusk, which again, you could be getting ready to sleep or already are, and this fucking loud speaker goes off again with the same drivel. Imagine having small children that wake up to this, it'll be your fucking nightmare.

So hell yeah to Norway, shut that shit down, get it outta here. It's an Implied Covenant dammit, how is this an issue?!

Edit - To give this a better picture, these loud speakers are hooked up to a megaphone on a pole, well above houses, and these things are FUCKING LOUD and can be heard for a couple miles at least. The levels of absurd are staggering and I hope none of you are subjected to this stupidity in your lifetime.
And to add insult to injury, the Mosques themselves, while they are churches, are not necessary. What these stupid prayer calls are doing, are giving folks that are Muslim to whip out a carpet, turn East, pray to Mecca and ignore everything around you. Shopkeepers at Bazaars, at least overseas, gave 0 fucks if you were there to conduct business.
Of all the religions I hate, I hate Islam the most. By far the dumbest one ever to be conceived by mankind followed up by Scientology.

[mrswdk]

Yeah, but those were majority Muslim countries. It's pretty rare to hear mosques issuing the call to prayer in UK cities*, and as the OP article states none of the mosques in Norway actually do so. This is just some politicians grabbing a few headlines making a song and dance about how Muslims don't fit in with their idea of Norway, nothing more.


*my area of London is majority Muslim and I've never heard the call

[Neoteny]

Haha an actual anti-muslim screed from the perspective of an imperialist invader gets a paragraph of explanation but an offhand comment about religions being weird gets vague whining about marginalized communities. All this while we're probably on the same side against dumb Norwegian politics.

This is one of the reasons the left will never win.

[mrswdk]

Most of what he said was an assumption that call to prayer in a European city will be as loud and intrusive as the call to prayer in Iraq or Afghanistan, which it isn't. So that assumption is the only point that really needs addressing. I could say something about his 'I hate Islam' comment but DDS has always been fairly comfortable with hating on different groups of society, so what's the point.

It doesn't really matter when the EDL say they hate darkies. Those people will always say stuff like that. It's when people who claim to be liberal, tolerant and accepting say things like 'black culture' or 'religion is stupid' that you have a problem. If even the liberals can't get liberalism right, what hope is there for anyone else?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Haha an actual anti-muslim screed from the perspective of an imperialist invader gets a paragraph of explanation but an offhand comment about religions being weird gets vague whining about marginalized communities. All this while we're probably on the same side against dumb Norwegian politics.

This is one of the reasons the left will never win.

Islam sucks - It's whole misbegotten religion should be thrown onto a pyre and forgotten.

As for my experience with this - Take it however you want. Left, right, liberal, anarchist, I don't give a flying f*ck, the prayer calls are fucking stupid and anyone that supports it are stupid as shit too.

Nobody wins.

[Neoteny]

Most of what he said was an assumption that call to prayer in a European city will be as loud and intrusive as the call to prayer in Iraq or Afghanistan, which it isn't. So that assumption is the only point that really needs addressing. I could say something about his 'I hate Islam' comment but DDS has always been fairly comfortable with hating on different groups of society, so what's the point.

It doesn't really matter when the EDL say they hate darkies. Those people will always say stuff like that.

You can justify your willingness to turn a blind eye to such bigotry however you want. I'm just making sure we're aware of it.

It's when people who claim to be liberal, tolerant and accepting say things like 'black culture' or 'religion is stupid' that you have a problem. If even the liberals can't get liberalism right, what hope is there for anyone else?

It's incredible to me that you would think that "the real problem" would be a defense identity politics over blatant bigotry. In a seriousface discussion of this, we're seeing this being played out on the left currently; as the politics of Hillary Clinton failed during the last US election, leftists have been practically at war with liberals on this very issue, and y'all are seeing it with Corbyn on your side of the pond as well. Perhaps it's not fair to even limit it to last election cycle, because I know the left has been harping on solidarity forever.

The idea is not that everyone is in lockstep on the left. We aren't going to radicalize all the liberals, and not everyone on the radical left is going to agree with each other on everything, and we certainly aren't going to agree with the bourgeois liberals on much. It's ye olde soviet vs. provisional government question. But if we put aside the small differences, we can do great things. The Russian revolutionary system definitely failed to do that (and also was obsessed with catering to the liberals for too long).

A current example of this involves a woman who is a leftist but a very devout Catholic and is anti-abortion. The liberals say that being anti-abortion is essentially anti-woman and want her to be de-platformed (Elizabeth Bruenig at WaPo ftr). Leftists recognize that she is wrong and that that specific opinion is dumb as f*ck, but nobody has perfect politics and we are working together toward the various goals of socialism etc. Both sides of this discussion definitely have a point, and I'm honestly still not sure where I fall on that particular issue (aside from I don't think anyone should lose their job for their religious beliefs). But I am leaning more toward the left's position that the only people we should demand ideological purity from are our elected officials, because the rest of us, even our media and movement leaders, are going to be a diverse bunch, and we need to be able to handle that. I'm happy to work with religious people in politics, but I do think religion is dumb. Hopefully they can let go of their pearls and work with me too. I expect they can.

All that to loop around to this tl;dr:

I don't know how much of what you post here is your actual politics. I can't say for sure if you are on the left side of the political spectrum or not. And even if you are, I don't know where you actually fall in that cohort. But if your MO is to attack others on the left while completely ignoring the bigotry or whatever else you are coming across, then you are doing the left no service. By all means call me out on being an ass to Muslims. There is a history of healthy squabbling amongst the left. Maybe I do go to far. But turning a blind eye to DDS is a shit way to go about doing it, and that's when it starts to get unhealthy. Unless you're actually on the right or politically agnostic and you're just using identity politics for the lulz. In that case, go f*ck yourself.

[Neoteny]

I do recognize that my stance on religion is probably bad praxis.

[Neoteny]

Islam sucks - It's whole misbegotten religion should be thrown onto a pyre and forgotten.

As for my experience with this - Take it however you want. Left, right, liberal, anarchist, I don't give a flying f*ck, the prayer calls are fucking stupid and anyone that supports it are stupid as shit too.

Nobody wins.

All the religions are dumb. But they are also just religions. Islam is fine. You're confusing religion with shitty people. Stop being shitty.

[mrswdk]

The thing with Corbyn isn't a genuine debate about anything he's actually done. It's just political opponents of his trying to discredit him by making out that he's an anti-Semite. It's no different to people calling Obama a Kenyan or saying Trump has small hands. Clown nonsense.

'Right' and 'left' are meaningless titles that take a vast range of different attitudes and world views and try to peg them all into simple little boxes. In elections I've voted in in the UK I've voted for Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem politicians and also spoiled my ballot. Which side of the tug of war does that put me on? Thinking about issues in terms of 'right' and 'left' is useful if you're trying to run a propaganda campaign, but not so much if you want to actually think about complex issues and problems in a reasoned and considered manner.

And like I said, I don't see the point in arguing with people who clearly aren't interested in the central message of what I'm saying. It's more productive to talk about tolerance with someone who thinks tolerance is important than it is to talk about it with someone who embraces the idea of being intolerant. The latter is never going to change their mind unless I devote an obscene amount of my personal time into playing their personal counselor, and I have better things to do.

[2dimes]

While it did not bother me in Egypt. We were only there for a few days. My wife and 3 year old daughter had no problem sleeping through it.

Ok so if you are a proud member of the Pope church, I'm fine with you saying your poems in your cathedral, home or even your business. In fact if you are quiet about it you can set up in front of my house and say it on the sidewalk.


Like Jones implied, I don't think you want someone ringing the Church Bells every time.

Just because I don't mind people reciting whatever religious poems they like, doesn't mean I want it broadcast loudly, waking everyone up for miles around, at dawn, at noon, then waking people up a second time just before dusk, every day.

In some places they add two more for five times a day.

*my area of London is majority Muslim and I've never heard the call

Do you want to?

I defy you to listen to it full blast at work a couple of times a day. As dishy wrote this is a short one.

If you live in Norway and need a reminder of when to pray, get an app on your phone, I know you have a smart phone, even if you only have one suit and a single pair of cloth slippers.

Setting up the community alarm clock in any new countries is absurd.

[mrswdk]

I wouldn't want it to be blasted at airplane volume 3-5 times a day for extended periods of time each time, but as I said - no one does that in the UK, so it's a moot point.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Islam sucks - It's whole misbegotten religion should be thrown onto a pyre and forgotten.

As for my experience with this - Take it however you want. Left, right, liberal, anarchist, I don't give a flying f*ck, the prayer calls are fucking stupid and anyone that supports it are stupid as shit too.

Nobody wins.

All the religions are dumb. But they are also just religions. Islam is fine. You're confusing religion with shitty people. Stop being shitty.

I'm going to actively avoid a long and drawn out religious battle about why Islam is the worst of them all and really should be condemned in every which way possible. Call me a horrible human being, but it won't change my stance or what I find to be factual. Islam sucks, horribly, end of story.
All religions suck really, and how they made it into modern society where science has time again brought us into this age of wondrous technology is baffling. But again, I'll reiterate that Islam is the worst. Do your own leg work, or just take my opinion with a grain of salt, I don't care whichever way.

As for the political spectrum, I'm in agreement with Mrsdwk (holy shit, shocking). Political terms serve no end goal, and they only help those that want to categorize people to fit into an argument. I think it's stupid when folks try to express an opinion and arguments/debates regress to folks calling one another a liberal, or alt right, or whatever the f*ck dumb term because they can't fit a good counter point, or they need to use it to justify their stance for some obscure reason. Just tackle someone's opinion, point by point, rather than resorting to some child temper tantrum "Waaah! Leftist LIBERAL!"

[Neoteny]

The thing with Corbyn isn't a genuine debate about anything he's actually done. It's just political opponents of his trying to discredit him by making out that he's an anti-Semite. It's no different to people calling Obama a Kenyan or saying Trump has small hands. Clown nonsense.

I'm not talking about the antisemitism thing in particular, just some of the overall resistance to him from centrists of his party, which I could be overstating. I probably don't spend enough time trying to parse whatever the f*ck y'all have going on over there.

'Right' and 'left' are meaningless titles that take a vast range of different attitudes and world views and try to peg them all into simple little boxes. In elections I've voted in in the UK I've voted for Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem politicians and also spoiled my ballot. Which side of the tug of war does that put me on? Thinking about issues in terms of 'right' and 'left' is useful if you're trying to run a propaganda campaign, but not so much if you want to actually think about complex issues and problems in a reasoned and considered manner.

This though, is like a checklist of msnbc/cnn liberal claptrap. You can play at the independent nonsense all you want, I guess, and pretend you're above the politics of politics to the applause of all the other mooks unable or unwilling to take a stand. After all, most people aren't brave enough to be identified as radical. And that's fine. Politics isn't for everyone. But the fact of the matter is that there are positions associated with the left and there are other often opposite ones associated with the right. That's not to say a person can't hold positions on both ends of the spectrum or that the positions don't shift some through time, but the directional shorthand is a useful descriptor for politics and movements. Pretending otherwise is just rhetorical navel-gazing. Having a position that corresponds to other like-minded individuals isn't propaganda. Again, that's politics. Feel free to not pick a "side." Keep trying to find that third way, I guess. It's working great so far.

And like I said, I don't see the point in arguing with people who clearly aren't interested in the central message of what I'm saying. It's more productive to talk about tolerance with someone who thinks tolerance is important than it is to talk about it with someone who embraces the idea of being intolerant. The latter is never going to change their mind unless I devote an obscene amount of my personal time into playing their personal counselor, and I have better things to do.

I've dedicated two lines to DDS so far, and, like, three to OP, and I'm rambling on and on with you. So I get it. I get not wanting to waste time with shitheads, and I'd take your word for it if you weren't, like, helping him refine his argument. It doesn't take much time to call them shitheads.

[Neoteny]

I'm going to actively avoid a long and drawn out religious battle about why Islam is the worst of them all and really should be condemned in every which way possible. Call me a horrible human being, but it won't change my stance or what I find to be factual. Islam sucks, horribly, end of story.
All religions suck really, and how they made it into modern society where science has time again brought us into this age of wondrous technology is baffling. But again, I'll reiterate that Islam is the worst. Do your own leg work, or just take my opinion with a grain of salt, I don't care whichever way.

I used to think that back when I was a shithead. I sort of came of age during the new atheist rise, and said some pretty shitty things even here on this website. My opinions on religion in general remain the same, but of the people who adhere to them have adjusted a lot. So I've done a lot of legwork there. Stop being a shithead.

As for the political spectrum, I'm in agreement with Mrsdwk (holy shit, shocking). Political terms serve no end goal, and they only help those that want to categorize people to fit into an argument. I think it's stupid when folks try to express an opinion and arguments/debates regress to folks calling one another a liberal, or alt right, or whatever the f*ck dumb term because they can't fit a good counter point, or they need to use it to justify their stance for some obscure reason. Just tackle someone's opinion, point by point, rather than resorting to some child temper tantrum "Waaah! Leftist LIBERAL!"

Political terms have their uses and discarding them because they don't do what you want them to do is as juvenile as using them in place of an argument. I don't yell at nazis because they're on the opposite end of the political spectrum as me. I do it because they are actual garbage.

[mrswdk]

What are the uses of dividing people up into 'left' and 'right' then?

[2dimes]

I wouldn't want it to be blasted at airplane volume 3-5 times a day for extended periods of time each time, but as I said - no one does that in the UK, so it's a moot point.

No it's not a moot point.

The point is, currently no one does that in Norway either, however there is someone being proactive to make it against the law, so if anyone tries to do it there in the future, reasonable legal means to prevent it will have been put in place.

Then those who wish to do it will need to go to a place like London where it's not against the law.

Just because it's unlikely yodeling will get popular enough to be annoying, does not mean I would vote against a law against it in a plebiscite. No yodeling on public transportation. Would get my X in flavour of the law.

[mrswdk]

I wouldn't want it to be blasted at airplane volume 3-5 times a day for extended periods of time each time, but as I said - no one does that in the UK, so it's a moot point.

No it's not a moot point.

The point is, currently no one does that in Norway either, however there is someone being proactive to make it against the law

They should make a law in the US that specifically says people of African descent are not allowed to sacrifice children in shamanic rituals.

People of African descent in the US don't actually do that, but it'd still be good to use the government's time and resources creating a law just in case.

[2dimes]

That is against the law. There is no loop hole that allows for killing people in the US. It makes Doctor Glucksberg sad you ignoramus.

[mrswdk]

There is no loop hole that allows for killing people in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

[Neoteny]

What are the uses of dividing people up into 'left' and 'right' then?

They're loose terms describing common political trends.

[jonesthecurl]

When I was in NJ they tried to outlaw the bells on Ice cream vans.

[2dimes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

Wel duh! Here in the new world we don't like some wank climbing in bedroom windows lookin' for an easy mark for buggery.



Frank Edwards can help prevent a second offense, 100% effective.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'm going to actively avoid a long and drawn out religious battle about why Islam is the worst of them all and really should be condemned in every which way possible. Call me a horrible human being, but it won't change my stance or what I find to be factual. Islam sucks, horribly, end of story.
All religions suck really, and how they made it into modern society where science has time again brought us into this age of wondrous technology is baffling. But again, I'll reiterate that Islam is the worst. Do your own leg work, or just take my opinion with a grain of salt, I don't care whichever way.

I used to think that back when I was a shithead. I sort of came of age during the new atheist rise, and said some pretty shitty things even here on this website. My opinions on religion in general remain the same, but of the people who adhere to them have adjusted a lot. So I've done a lot of legwork there. Stop being a shithead.

No

As for the political spectrum, I'm in agreement with Mrsdwk (holy shit, shocking). Political terms serve no end goal, and they only help those that want to categorize people to fit into an argument. I think it's stupid when folks try to express an opinion and arguments/debates regress to folks calling one another a liberal, or alt right, or whatever the f*ck dumb term because they can't fit a good counter point, or they need to use it to justify their stance for some obscure reason. Just tackle someone's opinion, point by point, rather than resorting to some child temper tantrum "Waaah! Leftist LIBERAL!"

Political terms have their uses and discarding them because they don't do what you want them to do is as juvenile as using them in place of an argument. I don't yell at nazis because they're on the opposite end of the political spectrum as me. I do it because they are actual garbage.

No

[mrswdk]

What are the uses of dividing people up into 'left' and 'right' then?

They're loose terms describing common political trends.

The whole socialism vs free market meme is such a dead meme though.

Or is it authoritarianism vs liberalism? Globalism vs nationalism?

I can't tell because they're such vague and meaningless labels.