Cultural Appropriation?

[jimboston]

This is such an American thing, where you have an ancestor born in X country 150 years ago so now you're X and entitled to all that entails.

It really is maximum irony that you have Americans like jim and jp4 who spend their who lives playing dress up as a fake Irish person but then create threads like this complaining about how a black guy once wore a kilt.

Explain the difference…

white american wears a headdress = canceled for cultural appropriation
black american wears a kilt = praised for being artistic

In one case, when a white American does something we are maligned… then when a black American does essentially the same thing he’s praised.

Period.

It really don’t matter if you think I have a claim to the Kilt or Celtic culture in any way or not.
It doesn’t matter if Americas should or shouldn’t try to retain their ancestral heritage.
What is the point is that sometimes this activity is maligned and another time the same activity is praised.

[KoolBak]

The PROBLEM, Jimbo, is not the cultural bs, it's the schism betwixt black and white that the (enter group names here) actively promote. Period.

White cop beats down black criminal: uproar.
Black cop beats down white criminal: Tuesday

Ad infinitum.

So fucking sad.

Luckily, in my world, people are fucking sane and this shit doesn't exist. Unlike in mrswdkes world, which is filled with freaks.

[bigtoughralf]

This is such an American thing, where you have an ancestor born in X country 150 years ago so now you're X and entitled to all that entails.

It really is maximum irony that you have Americans like jim and jp4 who spend their who lives playing dress up as a fake Irish person but then create threads like this complaining about how a black guy once wore a kilt.

Explain the difference…

white american wears a headdress
black american wears a kilt

10-20 seconds on Google and you could have answered this yourself.

Native American headdresses are given to warriors and leaders of great respect within their community, and native Americans consider it disrespectful if other people put them on.

A kilt is just a piece of clothing, like t-shirts or socks. The photo in your OP is of A$AP Rocky wearing a kilt to a fashion show which was paying tribute to a designer known for using kilts in his shows.

I don't know why you think A$AP Rocky's skin colour has any relevance. 'Scottish' is a nationality, not a skin colour. Here's the Scottish First Minister wearing his kilt:

[jusplay4fun]

This is such an American thing, where you have an ancestor born in X country 150 years ago so now you're X and entitled to all that entails.

It really is maximum irony that you have Americans like jim and jp4 who spend their who lives playing dress up as a fake Irish person but then create threads like this complaining about how a black guy once wore a kilt.

Explain the difference…

white american wears a headdress
black american wears a kilt

10-20 seconds on Google and you could have answered this yourself.

Native American headdresses are given to warriors and leaders of great respect within their community, and native Americans consider it disrespectful if other people put them on.

A kilt is just a piece of clothing, like t-shirts or socks. The photo in your OP is of A$AP Rocky wearing a kilt to a fashion show which was paying tribute to a designer known for using kilts in his shows.

I don't know why you think A$AP Rocky's skin colour has any relevance. 'Scottish' is a nationality, not a skin colour. Here's the Scottish First Minister wearing his kilt:

ralph missed this part:

In one case, when a white American does something we are maligned… then when a black American does essentially the same thing he’s praised.

This is the nature of the controversy is how others, especially liberals, and in the liberal media, respond. The key question and the controversy is NOT nature or identification of the apparel.

[bigtoughralf]

Already explained why people wearing native American war bonnets as fancy dress for a trip to Burning Man is different to A$AP Rocky wearing a kilt to the Met Gala. Scroll up.

There is some merit to KB's post though. The US is a totalitarian state in which 5% of all homicides are committed by their police. That issue would be much more meaningfully discussed if it was framed in terms of government vs citizenry, but the US media frames police brutality as a racial issue in order to divide the narrative and prevent the public establishing effective resistance to the Capitol's reign of terror.

[jimboston]

The PROBLEM, Jimbo, is not the cultural bs, it's the schism betwixt black and white that the (enter group names here) actively promote. Period.

White cop beats down black criminal: uproar.
Black cop beats down white criminal: Tuesday

Ad infinitum.

So fucking sad.

Luckily, in my world, people are fucking sane and this shit doesn't exist. Unlike in mrswdkes world, which is filled with freaks.

Yes.

I’m just pointing out the double standard as it applies to “cultural appropriation”… but I agree the double standard exists in other areas as well.

[jusplay4fun]

Like I said already, ralph does not know me and does not READ:

bigtoughralf wrote:

It really is maximum irony that you have Americans like jim and jp4 who spend their who lives playing dress up as a fake Irish person but then create threads like this complaining about how a black guy once wore a kilt.

I do not wear a kilt and I did not create this thread or any other such silly complaint. And, unlike you, I am not a fake Irish person, Silly ralph; try to read and comprehend. I think the worse part of all this is being linked to jimb. I cannot decide who is worse, jimb or ralph. At times, both offer compelling evidence and cogent arguments in their race to the bottom.

I do not care if anyone wears a kilt. That is not my concern, silly ralph.

[jimboston]

This is such an American thing, where you have an ancestor born in X country 150 years ago so now you're X and entitled to all that entails.

It really is maximum irony that you have Americans like jim and jp4 who spend their who lives playing dress up as a fake Irish person but then create threads like this complaining about how a black guy once wore a kilt.

Explain the difference…

white american wears a headdress
black american wears a kilt

10-20 seconds on Google and you could have answered this yourself.

Native American headdresses are given to warriors and leaders of great respect within their community, and native Americans consider it disrespectful if other people put them on.

A kilt is just a piece of clothing, like t-shirts or socks. The photo in your OP is of A$AP Rocky wearing a kilt to a fashion show which was paying tribute to a designer known for using kilts in his shows.

I don't know why you think A$AP Rocky's skin colour has any relevance. 'Scottish' is a nationality, not a skin colour. Here's the Scottish First Minister wearing his kilt:

Yawn.

I use Headdress as one example. If you. think it’s an unfair comparison because the headdress has special importance you could apply the analogy/complaint to any other “culturally appropriated” fair… be it clothing, music, food, etc.

BTW… you call the kilt “just a piece of clothing” but it does/g]has had significant cultural importance. The only reason it’s “just a piece of clothing” today is because “white” Europeans aren’t generally fucking hung up on hanging onto every thread of “cultural significance” that other cultures seem to cling to and demand obedience to…

[saxitoxin]

that is a very distinguished looking woman, she is quite the grand dame

[jusplay4fun]

that is a very distinguished looking woman, she is quite the grand dame

I think that ralph WISHES he were that good looking, and that he has a girlfriend as attractive as the one in his signature. Both are simply figments of ralph's imagination, however. Poor, pathetic, and sad ralph is.

[jimboston]

Already explained why people wearing native American war bonnets as fancy dress for a trip to Burning Man is different to A$AP Rocky wearing a kilt to the Met Gala. Scroll up.

There is some merit to KB's post though. The US is a totalitarian state in which 5% of all homicides are committed by their police. That issue would be much more meaningfully discussed if it was framed in terms of government vs citizenry, but the US media frames police brutality as a racial issue in order to divide the narrative and prevent the public establishing effective resistance to the Capitol's reign of terror.

Yeah… and you missed my point. Cultures have “appropriated” things from eachother since the dawn of man. One native tribe started sticking feathers in their hair… next thing you know it’s fancy headdresses that have some significance but this is shared by many DIFFERENT Native American tribes. The tribes “stole” this idea from eachother.

Just because some culture “claims” the right to some food/music/instrument/clothing/etc. does NOT give people from that culture EXCLUSIVE RIGHT to this food/music/instrument/clothing into perpetuity. THIS idea is new and FUCKING crazy. Then… in to of this the Woke Left try to enforce this idiotic idea… but they only enforce it for SOME cultures that they have identified as “marginalized”.

Meanwhile… they ignore the fact that some of the best things we have come from the merging of cultures. Food, art, music… all can be enhanced when people are “allowed” to freely borrow ideas from any and all cultures.

[saxitoxin]

Officially, cultural appropriation is appropriation by the dominant group of a minority's cultural traditions. The minority can't appropriate the dominant culture as they are forced to exist within it and have no choice. That's why the inconsistencies Jim cites are actually perfectly reasonable under the current, albeit everchanging, definition of appropriation.

What about a voluntary migrant who chooses to come to X country? If I voluntarily move to Samoa would I be looked at with nodding approval if I started to swagger around in a lavalava and doing fa'ataupat dances? Similarly, if someone chose to emigrate from Ghana to the U.S. in 2017 are they now prohibited from dressing in Western Wear?

Of course none of this makes any sense since all of it is just being made up as we go along.

Ultimately, however, it's Jim's fault for trying to find logic or reason in Democratic Party social policy. What is blue today is green tomorrow and what is green tomorrow may be magenta the day after.

[bigtoughralf]

I use Headdress as one example. If you. think it’s an unfair comparison because the headdress has special importance you could apply the analogy/complaint to any other “culturally appropriated” fair… be it clothing, music, food, etc.

Oh okay. Various unspecified items may or may not have at some point been considered to have been culturally appropriated by someone, which is proof that American society holds white people to a double standard.

Cultures have “appropriated” things from eachother since the dawn of man. One native tribe started sticking feathers in their hair… next thing you know it’s fancy headdresses that have some significance but this is shared by many DIFFERENT Native American tribes. The tribes “stole” this idea from eachother.

But now one post later you're back onto the war bonnet example. You really can't let this one go! Did a security guard confiscate your favourite headdress at Burning Man? Is that why you're so butthurt about this?

BTW… you call the kilt “just a piece of clothing” but it does/g]has had significant cultural importance. The only reason it’s “just a piece of clothing” today is because “white” Europeans aren’t generally fucking hung up on hanging onto every thread of “cultural significance” that other cultures seem to cling to and demand obedience to…

So the kilt is both a garment of significant cultural importance, and at the same time a garment considered to have little cultural significance to those who wear it. We have proven Schrodinger's kilt.

[bigtoughralf]

Similarly, if someone chose to emigrate from Ghana to the U.S. in 2017 are they now prohibited from dressing in Western Wear?

I was speaking to a Grenadian girl recently who was lamenting that most parts of the world (China, India, the Middle East etc.) follow religions led by one of their own (Confucius, Siddhartha Buddha, Mohammed etc.)* whereas Africans gave up their own gods to adopt the ones pushed on them by white Europeans*. In a similar fashion (my argument now) Africans wearing Western dress are simply wearing the clothing they were once taught to think superior by their European colonisers.

So yes, the Ghanaian man wearing a button down shirt is wearing internalised oppression. But that cultural oppression was not inflicted on him by the US - it was inflicted on his ancestors by their English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish colonisers.


*Christianity in Europe and the countries founded by their diaspora is included in this because throughout most of history Europeans were drawing Jesus and God as white men, and the major churches are still headquartered in Europe with white European leaders

[saxitoxin]

I was speaking to a Grenadian girl

This became unbelievable within the first ten words.

In any case ...

who was lamenting that most parts of the world (China, India, the Middle East etc.) follow religions led by one of their own (Confucius, Siddhartha Buddha, Mohammed etc.)* whereas Africans gave up their own gods to adopt the ones pushed on them by white Europeans

I would have told this ... guy with delicate features ... to whom you were speaking that Europeans also gave up their own gods to adopt one pushed on them by outsiders. I don't think there are many Europeans nowadays who still worship Odin or Zeus.

Interesting how it always comes back to you know who ...

[jimboston]

We have proven Schrodinger's kilt.

Yes… because the whole argument around “cultural appropriation” is ridiculous.

[bigtoughralf]

I was speaking to a Grenadian girl

This became unbelievable within the first ten words.

That's seven words, numb nuts.

Europeans also gave up their own gods to adopt one pushed on them by outsiders. I don't think there are many Europeans nowadays who still worship Odin or Zeus.

Christianity originated within the Roman Empire and was eventually adopted as Rome's official religion. So its spread within Europe was led by the Romans.

It's a fair point that nations like England only have the language, religion etc they do due to Roman colonisation and as such English people are actually enormous victims of colonialism.

[bigtoughralf]

We have proven Schrodinger's kilt.

Yes… because the whole argument around “cultural appropriation” is ridiculous.

Well, your arguments around it are at least.

[jimboston]

Officially, cultural appropriation is appropriation by the dominant group of a minority's cultural traditions. The minority can't appropriate the dominant culture as they are forced to exist within it and have no choice. That's why the inconsistencies Jim cites are actually perfectly reasonable under the current, albeit everchanging, definition of appropriation.

I didn’t know Black Americans who were born here, and who’s parents and grandparents have been here for generations, are forced to exist within American culture?

I don’t understand why there’s “Black” and “White” cultures that distinct and separate. I’m pretty sure that everything has been blended and re blended together enough that no one can really honestly “claim” any specific thing as “theirs”. Sure there are subcultures and classes, and there are variances between these… but significant enough to honestly claim “appropriation” seems like a stretch.

It’s also stupid and hypocritical to demand appropriation be acknowledged only in one direction.

Ultimately, however, it's Jim's fault for trying to find logic or reason in Democratic Party social policy.

I’m NOT trying to find logic here. I’m pointing out how it’s illogical at its’ root.

[saxitoxin]

I was speaking to a Grenadian girl

This became unbelievable within the first ten words.

That's seven words, numb nuts.

Europeans also gave up their own gods to adopt one pushed on them by outsiders. I don't think there are many Europeans nowadays who still worship Odin or Zeus.

Christianity originated within the Roman Empire and was eventually adopted as Rome's official religion. So its spread within Europe was led by the Romans.

It's a fair point that nations like England only have the language, religion etc they do due to Roman colonisation and as such English people are actually enormous victims of colonialism.

Are English people even English? I just asked ChatGPT what percent of white residents of England are "predominantly" descended from pre-Roman Brythons and it told me between 5-25 percent.

I think the English were exterminated and replaced by Romans and Normans, just like Native Americans were exterminated in North America. The only difference is, in North America we play act and pretend Native Americans actually still exist since there's billions of dollars in casino money and federal grants that depend on the illusion. Take away the money and the entire Tribal system collapses tomorrow.

[jimboston]

We have proven Schrodinger's kilt.

Yes… because the whole argument around “cultural appropriation” is ridiculous.

Well, your arguments around it are at least.

My arguments proving its’ legitimacy?

It seems clear that I’m working against that goal. You’ve not once given a reason why anyone should respect the concept.

Because “Native Americans held the Headdress is high esteem” or some such bullshit.

If that’s the argument then even people with Native American heritage shouldn’t be allowed to wear it!

If a Native American could only achieve the level of “greatness” or esteem necessary to justify his wearing of the headdress by killing his enemies or through great military victories… well then no Native American has done that for well over a hundred years. So either that’s a valid reason or it ain’t… if it is NO ONE can wear it; if it ain’t then the feathers no longer have meaning and they are no different than a Scally Cap.

In medieval Europe only knights could wear armor and/or certain insignia on their armor. Now any LARPer with enough cash can buy himself/herself a suit of armor and no one gives a f*ck. What’s the difference?

… but again I could replace Headdress with Asian style food or Jazz/Blues music…. the point would be the same.

[jimboston]

I was speaking to a Grenadian girl

This became unbelievable within the first ten words.

That's seven words, numb nuts.

Europeans also gave up their own gods to adopt one pushed on them by outsiders. I don't think there are many Europeans nowadays who still worship Odin or Zeus.

Christianity originated within the Roman Empire and was eventually adopted as Rome's official religion. So its spread within Europe was led by the Romans.

It's a fair point that nations like England only have the language, religion etc they do due to Roman colonisation and as such English people are actually enormous victims of colonialism.

Are English people even English? I just asked ChatGPT what percent of white residents of England are "predominantly" descended from pre-Roman Brythons and it told me between 5-25 percent.

I think the English were exterminated and replaced by Romans and Normans, just like Native Americans were exterminated in North America. The only difference is, in North America we play act and pretend Native Americans actually still exist since there's billions of dollars in casino money and federal grants that depend on the illusion. Take away the money and the entire Tribal system collapses tomorrow.

I mean it’s pretty much already collapsed… at least insofar as the goal was to better the lives and serve Native Americans.

by keeping their Reservation System they enable a minority of their “leaders” to get rich; while they deprive their children and future generations of a legitimate fair chance of bettering themselves.

[saxitoxin]

True story - within the last month I was at an event held by a local tribe here and said tribe had one of their youth performance groups perform the tribal gathering song for the guests.

They all claimed to know Lushootseed but, of course, no one ever challenges that claim; the reality is "knowing" a Native language means being able to say about 150 words in it you learned in an after school program in middle school. And they're essentially a memorization list of nouns; they can't construct sentences or communicate ideas or even conjugate verbs. It's not even A1 level language proficiency.

Two of the three performers had blonde hair and blue eyes and what can only be described as ivory skin. Blue eyes are a genetic mutation that occurred in Denmark about 6,000 years ago. It doesn't naturally occur anywhere else. But because Tribes have almost all abolished blood quantum requirements you could have someone who is 99% of Danish stock and 1% Native American and that person is a part of the oppressed Tribal survivors massacred by the colonizers.

[jimboston]

True story - within the last month I was at an event held by a local tribe here and said tribe had one of their youth performance groups perform the tribal gathering song for the guests.

They all claimed to know Lushootseed but, of course, no one ever challenges that claim; the reality is "knowing" a Native language means being able to say about 150 words in it you learned in an after school program in middle school. And they're essentially a memorization list of nouns; they can't construct sentences or communicate ideas or even conjugate verbs. It's not even A1 level language proficiency.

Two of the three performers had blonde hair and blue eyes and what can only be described as ivory skin. Blue eyes are a genetic mutation that occurred in Denmark about 6,000 years ago. It doesn't naturally occur anywhere else. But because Tribes have almost all abolished blood quantum requirements you could have someone who is 99% of Danish stock and 1% Native American and that person is a part of the oppressed Tribal survivors massacred by the colonizers.

They’re oppressed by their own “leaders” who get rich and use their poor standard of living as a means to extract further money from the Gov’t.

[bigtoughralf]

I like how jim manages to maintain that ethnic minorities in the US have not been forcibly assimilated, while simultaneously arguing that forced assimilation is the most appropriate way to deal with native American culture.

Similar to how he argues that black people no longer have any unique cultural identity, while simultaneously denying that black people have been forced to shed their cultural identities.

On the point about black people's place in US culture and society: jim, can you see how black people originally all being white people's slaves, then being excluded from mainstream society via government-enforced apartheid until well within living memory, might have led to black Americans feeling distant from mainstream US culture?