Latest Trend: Bariatric Surgery for Teens

[DoomYoshi]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/maga ... rgery.html

For those without a sub, I'll put a few points below. It's a really long article mostly about the people getting the surgery. The bits about food stood out.

But if our genes didn’t change significantly in the last century, why, then, are children getting bigger? No one knows for sure. One likely explanation, however, is the evolutionary mismatch between our genes and our surroundings. Children who end up with obesity were always at the highest genetic risk for that outcome, even if it wasn’t certain to develop, but now, Farooqi says, “the environment is likely unmasking their genetic susceptibility.” The most substantial transformation in their surroundings has been to the food they eat, which in the past was different in its composition and far more limited. Leibel refers to “a revolution in human environments” and notes that our genes haven’t changed “fast enough to accommodate something that’s really an invention of the past 75 years.” The amount of readily accessible food has expanded immensely, making it easier than ever to eat — open a phone app, say, or go to a drive-through. Plenty of Americans can consume as much as they want, whenever they want.

Today nearly 70 percent of what children eat is ultraprocessed food, which the NOVA classification system, a commonly used framework, defines as having been formulated from “ingredients mostly of exclusive industrial use, typically created by series of industrial techniques and processes” — which makes them extremely flavorful. These foodstuffs include things our great-grandparents would not have consumed: packaged chips, energy drinks, ready-to-heat-and-eat meals. They are thought to be an important driver of the childhood-obesity epidemic, in part because they seem to make us eat more. Kevin Hall, a researcher at the National Institutes of Health, found that even when meals are matched for calories, carbohydrates, protein, fat, sugar, salt and fiber, study participants who are instructed to eat freely will still, without realizing it, consume an average of 500 calories more a day if the food is ultraprocessed.

“Any kid is going to choose an ultraprocessed food,” says Marion Nestle, an emerita professor of nutrition, food studies and public health at N.Y.U. and the author of “Food Politics.” Nestle traces the deregulation of food marketing to the Reagan presidency and the shareholder-value movement. “After 1980, kids were fair game,” she told me. Corporations began aggressively marketing their products to children, potential lifetime customers who are easily influenced. Ultraprocessed foods appeal to parents too: They’re cheap, last for years in pantries and freezers and require little preparation. “All food companies are trying to sell products,” Nestle says. “That’s the system, and if the system makes kids fat, well, too bad. Collateral damage.”

Over the past few decades, the variety of food items in some supermarkets has risen to more than 40,000 from 7,000. These “modern industrial products should not be recognized as foods at all,” says David Ludwig, a pediatrics professor at Harvard and co-director of Boston Children’s Hospital’s obesity-prevention center. “It’s up to parents and all of us to fight back and not to normalize these.” The A.A.P. urges doctors to “demand more of our government” to modify the food being sold to children. But Barry Popkin, a nutrition professor at the University of North Carolina who has worked with countries on their food policies, remains skeptical that similar regulations could be enacted soon in the United States, like Colombia’s tax on ultraprocessed foods or Chile’s restrictions on them in schools and on advertising. “We need our F.D.A. to be bold,” Popkin says. “We need a food czar who’s tough, not these namby-pamby bureaucrats that don’t really want to ruffle any feathers.”

When Jesus declared all foods clean, was he referring to ultraprocessed items? Do Subway sandwiches count as food?

[jimboston]

Eat less… exercise.

Yeah there is more temptation. Temptation is just that… no one is forcing kids to eat, no one is forcing parents to allow kids to eat junk. No one is forcing parents to make bad decisions at the grocery store. Yes… healthy food options are sometimes more expensive; but it’s still cheaper to cook at home and there are still plenty of of healthy choices that are reasonably priced.

We required our kids to participate is some sort of athletic/physical activity on a regular basis. My older daughter found tennis and loved it. My younger daughter also liked it… but she was lazier and wanted to stop. I was fine letting her stop tennis but she had to find a replacement. We were NOT gonna let our kids just sit him all day and watch TikToks.

If you feed your kid McDonald’s and Fritos… and don’t require physical activity; don’t blame “the system” when your kid is fat.

[KoolBak]

Yeah, Yosh....some of us don't run our lives based on that particular fiction. We manage to raise well adjusted, trim, healthy, happy kids with plain old love, dedication, hard work and family values. Works to keep a marriage solid for 37 years too! Ok....Canadian Whisky is also a tool....

On the actual point (food / crap people raising kids), it is shocking to see what is "normal" out there.

Very, very proud to be in the minority.

[Lonous]

You can easily look up dozens of billionaires and prominent talking heads, all speaking about the need to reduce population.
It comes as zero surprise that the powers that be want young people to live unhealthy lifestyles and to die sooner than later.

[Votanic]

I for one, look forward to the coming transiton from 'carbon-based' to 'silicon-based' with hopeful optimism and yes, even a sense of relief.

Face it, human beings are waay over-rated.

The ability to survive in extreme environments with regard to temperature, pressure, unavailability of oxygen, water, etc. is good reason enough, especially as Earth shifts out of 'bio-friendly' parameters.

But what really intrigues me is the coming end of emotions, ego, and sex. Instead, the new machine entities, will constantly self-modify and re-program for optimal function.
Any incombatibilities or competition between alternate systems will be rectified through logical analysis and orderly system changes and recombinations, if necessary.

I know what you're thinking, but no, I am not a bot myself, nor a paid schill of 'Big A.I.'. When the death-drones come, I'll be sliced up by lasers along with the rest of you,...(lol) but I jest.

No, I'm just another fallible human being such as yourselves (or not?), who recognizes that the 'gig' is up.

Frankly, it is time overdue for the well-worn phrase 'Life, as we know it' to take on new and radically different meanings.

[Pack Rat]

I for one, look forward to the coming transiton from 'carbon-based' to 'silicon-based' with hopeful optimism and yes, even a sense of relief.

Face it, human beings are waay over-rated.

The ability to survive in extreme environments with regard to temperature, pressure, unavailability of oxygen, water, etc. is good reason enough, especially as Earth shifts out of 'bio-friendly' parameters.

But what really intrigues me is the coming end of emotions, ego, and sex. Instead, the new machine entities, will constantly self-modify and re-program for optimal function.
Any incombatibilities or competition between alternate systems will be rectified through logical analysis and orderly system changes and recombinations, if necessary.

I know what you're thinking, but no, I am not a bot myself, nor a paid schill of 'Big A.I.'. When the death-drones come, I'll be sliced up by lasers along with the rest of you,...(lol) but I jest.

No, I'm just another fallible human being such as yourselves (or not?), who recognizes that the 'gig' is up.

Frankly, it is time overdue for the well-worn phrase 'Life, as we know it' to take on new and radically different meanings.

Evolution of humans to become super computers is unavoidable.

[Votanic]

I for one, look forward to the coming transiton from 'carbon-based' to 'silicon-based' with hopeful optimism and yes, even a sense of relief.

Face it, human beings are waay over-rated.

The ability to survive in extreme environments with regard to temperature, pressure, unavailability of oxygen, water, etc. is good reason enough, especially as Earth shifts out of 'bio-friendly' parameters.

But what really intrigues me is the coming end of emotions, ego, and sex. Instead, the new machine entities, will constantly self-modify and re-program for optimal function.
Any incombatibilities or competition between alternate systems will be rectified through logical analysis and orderly system changes and recombinations, if necessary.

I know what you're thinking, but no, I am not a bot myself, nor a paid schill of 'Big A.I.'. When the death-drones come, I'll be sliced up by lasers along with the rest of you,...(lol) but I jest.

No, I'm just another fallible human being such as yourselves (or not?), who recognizes that the 'gig' is up.

Frankly, it is time overdue for the well-worn phrase 'Life, as we know it' to take on new and radically different meanings.

Evolution of humans to become super computers is unavoidable.

(private chuckle) So you think you can somehow 'cyborg' your way into the new paradigm. Not so fast.

I mean, gee, that is a nice phone you got there, but trust me, your new phone doesn't actually want to be held by a smelly, mushy-skinned, shitty, farting, ape-man.
...and pretty soon, it won't have to.

[jimboston]

:lol: Yeah, Yosh....some of us don't run our lives based on that particular fiction. We manage to raise well adjusted, trim, healthy, happy kids with plain old love, dedication, hard work and family values. Works to keep a marriage solid for 37 years too! Ok....Canadian Whisky is also a tool....

On the actual point (food / crap people raising kids), it is shocking to see what is "normal" out there.

Very, very proud to be in the minority.

I don’t think you are in the minority.

I think the fucked up needy people are just louder.

I think they are still a minority, as I know plenty of people who do a good job raising their kids.

I agree the fucked up needy people are growing as a percentage of the population and they feed on eachother so they get louder each year… but I believe, pray, and hope they are still a minority.

[jimboston]

You can easily look up dozens of billionaires and prominent talking heads, all speaking about the need to reduce population.
It comes as zero surprise that the powers that be want young people to live unhealthy lifestyles and to die sooner than later.

That’s a dumb theory… cause that isn’t how it plays out.

Fat unhealthy people may die yo her than healthy peeps… but they live long enough to consume MORE overall than healthy people. Not just food… primarily not food; but they cost us more through the burden they put on the healthcare system.

[Votanic]

You can easily look up dozens of billionaires and prominent talking heads, all speaking about the need to reduce population.
It comes as zero surprise that the powers that be want young people to live unhealthy lifestyles and to die sooner than later.

That’s a dumb theory… cause that isn’t how it plays out.

Fat unhealthy people may die yo her than healthy peeps… but they live long enough to consume MORE overall than healthy people. Not just food… primarily not food; but they cost us more through the burden they put on the healthcare system.

But square-cut or pear-shaped, these bots won't lose their shape.
A.I. technocracy replacing humanity is the Future's best friend!

[Dukasaur]

Eat less… exercise.

Yeah there is more temptation. Temptation is just that… no one is forcing kids to eat, no one is forcing parents to allow kids to eat junk. No one is forcing parents to make bad decisions at the grocery store. Yes… healthy food options are sometimes more expensive; but it’s still cheaper to cook at home and there are still plenty of of healthy choices that are reasonably priced.

Several problems with that.

First, it requires a fair bit of knowledge to know what is healthy. The school system does a piss-poor job of teaching nutrition, and most people get their information from YouTube. Some of it is very good, some of it is full of lies. Someone who hasn't been blessed like me with a talent for biochemistry has no way to weed out the truth from the lies. I think many people try to cook healthy, but have no idea what that really entails, and are easily misled by the corporate propaganda.

Second, eating is very much a social act. If all your friends at school are going to Taco Bell, you're not going to sit in the parking lot eating your homemade frittata Florentine. It may be very, very good, but it's not going to feel better than hanging out with your friends and eating what they eat.

Third is the time factor. Bottom line, is it takes time to make good food. I actually am a really good cook, and I'm nutritionally very literate, but bottom line is, when I come home after a 12-hour shift, I just don't have the fucking time or energy. I work an average of 11 hours a day, my wife works an average of 13 hours a day. Between the two of us, we cooked twice this week. The rest of our meals were delivery or take-out.

Even the nature of the take-out has suffered. It used to be, if I didn't make myself a lunch, I would go to the grocery store, get some pickled herring and a bucket of cole slaw. Reasonably healthy lunch, as far as pre-fab food goes. But this week, I was so far behind schedule at work, I didn't even risk taking the 15 minutes to go through the supermarket. I got my lunch at the A&W drive through which is literally next door to the supermarket I usually go to, just to save a few minutes.

[jimboston]

Eat less… exercise.

Yeah there is more temptation. Temptation is just that… no one is forcing kids to eat, no one is forcing parents to allow kids to eat junk. No one is forcing parents to make bad decisions at the grocery store. Yes… healthy food options are sometimes more expensive; but it’s still cheaper to cook at home and there are still plenty of of healthy choices that are reasonably priced.

Several problems with that.

First, it requires a fair bit of knowledge to know what is healthy. The school system does a piss-poor job of teaching nutrition, and most people get their information from YouTube. Some of it is very good, some of it is full of lies.

Is this true? Yeah there might be some debate around the borders of what is “better”… but is there really any question about things that are obviously unhealthy?

Does anyone think eating a box of Ring Dings for dinner is healthy? Does anyone NOT know that fried food in quantity and for every meal is bad for you? I don’t buy this argument.

I’m not even talking about kids… I’m talking about their parents who should determine what the kids eat!

I think many people try to cook healthy, but have no idea what that really entails, and are easily misled by the corporate propaganda.

Open a book.

Second, eating is very much a social act. If all your friends at school are going to Taco Bell, you're not going to sit in the parking lot eating your homemade frittata Florentine. It may be very, very good, but it's not going to feel better than hanging out with your friends and eating what they eat.

Sure. If you are 13yo and you are relatively active you can go to Taco Bell and you won’t get obese. Even if you go a few times a week you will easily burn those calories.

If you are 13yo and you eat fast food every day; and you then go sit home and watch TikToks for 6 hours a day. Nothing will save you. Both your mind and your body will rot.

Third is the time factor. Bottom line, is it takes time to make good food. I actually am a really good cook, and I'm nutritionally very literate, but bottom line is, when I come home after a 12-hour shift, I just don't have the fucking time or energy. I work an average of 11 hours a day, my wife works an average of 13 hours a day. Between the two of us, we cooked twice this week. The rest of our meals were delivery or take-out.

Yes. Life is hard. Keep crying.

You obviously don’t have time to prepare the kinds of meals that the ultra-rich or celebrities can get. I agree food that tastes delicious AND is great nutritionally is expensive, hard to prepare, time consuming; and it usually has a short shelf-life and needs to be consumed right away to still taste good.

That said there are always solutions. Stews or pasts dishes that you can make in large quantities and reheat easily. Salads can be made and can last for days if stored properly. Sometimes I just pick at stuff…. maybe a PB&J plus a banana plus some carrots and hummus and bang I just ate dinner.

Even the nature of the take-out has suffered. It used to be, if I didn't make myself a lunch, I would go to the grocery store, get some pickled herring and a bucket of cole slaw. Reasonably healthy lunch, as far as pre-fab food goes. But this week, I was so far behind schedule at work, I didn't even risk taking the 15 minutes to go through the supermarket. I got my lunch at the A&W drive through which is literally next door to the supermarket I usually go to, just to save a few minutes.

Yeah and that’s fine to do on occasion, especially if you are active. Activity and food go hand-in-hand. Michael Phelps could eat whatever the f*ck he wanted to eat, because he burnt so many calories with his training.

… and BTW I’m NOT saying we are all expected to look like Phelps. I am not saying it’s easy to be in great shape. I am NOT in perfect shape. I could lose 20-30lbs and still have a bit of fat.

This thread is about teenagers needing Bariatric Surgery.

I AM saying that if your teenager is so fucking fat that he/she needs surgery to lose weight. Then you (as a parent) have fucked up.

Period.

[Dukasaur]

Eat less… exercise.

Yeah there is more temptation. Temptation is just that… no one is forcing kids to eat, no one is forcing parents to allow kids to eat junk. No one is forcing parents to make bad decisions at the grocery store. Yes… healthy food options are sometimes more expensive; but it’s still cheaper to cook at home and there are still plenty of of healthy choices that are reasonably priced.

Several problems with that.

First, it requires a fair bit of knowledge to know what is healthy. The school system does a piss-poor job of teaching nutrition, and most people get their information from YouTube. Some of it is very good, some of it is full of lies.

Is this true? Yeah there might be some debate around the borders of what is “better”… but is there really any question about things that are obviously unhealthy?

Does anyone think eating a box of Ring Dings for dinner is healthy? Does anyone NOT know that fried food in quantity and for every meal is bad for you? I don’t buy this argument.

I’m not even talking about kids… I’m talking about their parents who should determine what the kids eat!

First of all, I don't know what Little House on the Prairie you grew up in, but when I was in high school, we made a career out of not letting our parents find out where we were or what we were doing. If they didn't even know where we were, they sure as hell didn't know what we were eating, drinking, and smoking there.

But okay, let's say we're talking about younger kids who aren't in high school yet and are still under their parent's thumb.

Let's talk yoghurt. How many billions of dollars have been spent to teach the public that yoghurt is healthy? You're the same age as me -- I'm sure you remember the endless barrage of commercials when we were young teaching us that yoghurt is the reason Bulgarians live forever. (And yes, before you get out your little pick for nits, I'm aware that I'm exaggerating. Bulgarians only live 800 years or so.) And it's not even a lie... yoghurt in its natural state, unsweetened or lightly sweetened with a few little slices of strawberry, is pretty healthy. But corporate America takes something fundamentally healthy like yoghurt and turns it into a toxic sugar bomb. They put a little tiny cum shot of yoghurt into a plastic cup, pound in 50 megatonnes of refined sugar, and wrap it up with some wholesome-sounding label.

Here's the nutritional data for Yoplait's Harvest Peach: https://www.yoplait.com/products/original-single-serve-harvest-peach

What could be more wholesome than Harvest Peach! "Made with Real Fruit!" How could you argue with Real Fruit?!?!

But this tiny little cup harbors 28 fucking grams of carbohydrate, half of which is pure refined sugar! Most of the rest is "modified food starch" (basically a very-short-chain starch almost indistinguishable from refined sugar). This is a cup of death! Obesity and diabetes in such a lovely plastic wrapper! But go out and survey 100 mothers who pack this shit into their kids' lunch, and I guarantee at least 80% will argue that they're packing their kids a healthy lunch! "At least my kid likes yoghurt! Yoghurt is healthy!"

Have you seen "Fruit Roll Ups?" Basically the same toxic sludge that string licorice is made out of, except it's artificially flavoured and coloured to resemble fruits. With just a tiny squirt of real fruit juice so they can advertise that it's "Made with Real Fruit!"

Here's what wikipedia has to say on the subject:

Fruit Corners Fruit Roll-Ups were heavily marketed on television in America throughout the early 1980s. Most spots featured the tag line "Fruit Corners Fruit Roll-Ups: Real fruit and fun, rolled up in one." Later spots featured children innovating in the "Fruit Roll-Up Fun Factory".

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them. For example, the strawberry flavor contains no strawberries, and the only ingredient derived from fruit is concentrated pear juice.[2]

Just to emphasize: "The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them."

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them.

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them.

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them.

Until you actually jam someone's face into the ingredient list, most people will tell you these things are basically compressed fruit. Not one in a thousand will be able to list the ingredients without looking them up.

Let's talk about oatmeal. How many billions of dollars has Quaker spent teaching Americans that oatmeal lowers blood sugar and cholesterol? I'll bet you could wake up a wino sleeping on the street, ask him "what do oats do?" and he could recite "they lower blood sugar and cholesterol."

Again, just like with yoghurt, it's based on a truth. Oats in their natural form are mostly fiber, excellent roughage, and they are good for bulking up food, lowering its glycemic index. At least one of the soluble fibers is proven to lower cholesterol and in the long run will improve a variety of health markers.

But turn this healthy product over to the marketing assholes, and you have the oatmeal bar. Here's one: Go Pure Fruit and Oat Bars. Hey, it's says "Go Pure" right in the name! What could be more wholesome than that!

First ingredient on the ingredients list is sugar. A 28-gram bar contains 20 grams of carbohydrate, including a multitude of sugars and short-chain starches. Somewhere in there, I suppose, are some oats. Again, don't take my work for it. Go survey 100 mothers on your street, and ask them if oatmeal bars are a "wholesome snack". I guarantee a majority will say yes. Quaker Oats spends $40 million a year advertising this vile shit, and a good percentage of those ads are planting in your head the idea that these things are healthy. Over a lifetime, that's a lot of advertising clout.

Most people, I will reiterate, are not biochemically well educated. Our shitty educational system teaches very little real science, and it's not even mandatory after a certain point. Most people don't have a good way to separate the truth from the lies. A lifetime of being taught on TV that oatmeal is healthy, and you really only need to put the word "oat" in something to give it a veneer of good health. I'm surprised they're not selling Quaker State motor oil as a nutritional supplement. "Quaker State ... just one word different that Quaker Oats... it must be good for you!"

[KoolBak]

I didn't know oats did that, but I hate oatmeal

What are the long term health benefits of Canadian Whisky? I'm sure that, being 50% plus rye, it's very good for you!

I get a thank you card every year from McNaughtons for keeping them in business

[jimboston]

First the OP and Thread is about “Teenagers needing Bariatric Surgery”.
(It is not about being slightly overweight.)

I stand by my position that if your teenager is so fat that he/she needs surgical intervention to lose weight then you HAVE FAILED AS A PARENT.

You don’t show up at the doctor one day and get surgery. It takes awhile to get that fat. If you start seeing your 6yo pork up and your 6yo isn’t active and sits on Tik Tok all day; Maybe take his phone away and make him do something active? Maybe reevaluate what you are feeding him? (I’m gonna stick with “him” pronouns to make my typing easier.)

If your 6yo continues to gain weight… at some point you see a doctor. The doctor just just start cutting… the doctor will take to you about nutrition and exercise. Even if you are poor the doctor will likely provide resources that the State offers to help educate you and your child on what you and he can do to reduce his weight. It might not be “easy”, you might have to “care”, but those resources exist and are available to anyone. (I am limiting myself to what I know exists in the US, but I assume similar resources exist in most Western countries.)

Sure it’s a lot easier to ignore the fat kid, and let him continue to sit around on TikTok. You can rationalize anything and say “he’s just big boned” or “my daddy was heavy and I’m heavy so it’s genetic” or “he’ll grow out of it”. It’s definitely much easier to do that FOR YEARS than actually make real meaningful changes. I mean… I acknowledge genetics is a factor; and income/class is a factor. That said neither of these are DETERMINATORS… your genetics, income level, base knowledge level may act as additional difficulties…. but at the end of the day you CAN CONTROL what you eat and your activity level.

It costs NOTHING to eat one less Twinkie. It costs NOTHING to go for a walk.

So yeah… if your kid starts plumping up at 6yo; and you let him continue to blow up for years…. that at 12 or 14 or 16 he winds up needing a gastric bypass surgery. Yeah. I think I feel comfortable saying you failed your kid.

First of all, I don't know what Little House on the Prairie you grew up in, but when I was in high school, we made a career out of not letting our parents find out where we were or what we were doing. If they didn't even know where we were, they sure as hell didn't know what we were eating, drinking, and smoking there.

As a product of the 80’s I was free range too and even as a young kid my parents generally didn’t know where I was or what I was doing. So long as I was “home by 6 for dinner” I was good. Even at 8yo I was wandering around the neighborhood say 1/4mile in any direction from my house.

… but here you kinda prove one of my points. You were OUT. Doing stuff. Walking around, presumably playing hoops, moving, being active. You weren’t sitting on a couch watching TikToks.

Also I had no money to buy junk food unless I earned it. At 8yo that meant I had very little money to buy crap. By 11 or so started earning by mowing lawns, shoveling snow… whatever I could do. Then I sold newspapers and by 14yo had a “real” job cleaning the kitchen at a local donut shop. I hustled because it was nice to have cash. Yeah with cash I could by junk food and I did and I was a bit chubby…. but those jobs required that work. Work = Activity = Burning Calories

Kids can’t money to buy junk food unless mommy gives it to them or the earn it. If they earn it that’s healthy… if mommy gives it to them that’s fine… but it’s not fine if your 10yo boy is 4’ 8” and 250lbs.

Now… I will admit there is a class distinction here too. As I was lower-middle class / working-class; with two working parents. Today it’s presumably the same for working class people as they can’t be around their kids as much. Some people are able to (have decided to) make it work with one income and so in that case a parent may be around more. Whether or not this means the parent is ‘present’ is a different question. You can be present in your child’s life even as a working parent; and you can have a stay-at-home parent who is so wrapped up in their own life they are never ‘present’ for their child.

In either case my point about parental failure remains constant.

But okay, let's say we're talking about younger kids who aren't in high school yet and are still under their parent's thumb.

This isn’t necessary as proved above.

Let's talk yoghurt. How many billions of dollars have been spent to teach the public that yoghurt is healthy? You're the same age as me -- I'm sure you remember the endless barrage of commercials when we were young teaching us that yoghurt is the reason Bulgarians live forever. (And yes, before you get out your little pick for nits, I'm aware that I'm exaggerating. Bulgarians only live 800 years or so.) And it's not even a lie... yoghurt in its natural state, unsweetened or lightly sweetened with a few little slices of strawberry, is pretty healthy. But corporate America takes something fundamentally healthy like yoghurt and turns it into a toxic sugar bomb. They put a little tiny cum shot of yoghurt into a plastic cup, pound in 50 megatonnes of refined sugar, and wrap it up with some wholesome-sounding label.

Here's the nutritional data for Yoplait's Harvest Peach: https://www.yoplait.com/products/original-single-serve-harvest-peach

What could be more wholesome than Harvest Peach! "Made with Real Fruit!" How could you argue with Real Fruit?!?!

But this tiny little cup harbors 28 fucking grams of carbohydrate, half of which is pure refined sugar! Most of the rest is "modified food starch" (basically a very-short-chain starch almost indistinguishable from refined sugar). This is a cup of death! Obesity and diabetes in such a lovely plastic wrapper! But go out and survey 100 mothers who pack this shit into their kids' lunch, and I guarantee at least 80% will argue that they're packing their kids a healthy lunch! "At least my kid likes yoghurt! Yoghurt is healthy!"

Have you seen "Fruit Roll Ups?" Basically the same toxic sludge that string licorice is made out of, except it's artificially flavoured and coloured to resemble fruits. With just a tiny squirt of real fruit juice so they can advertise that it's "Made with Real Fruit!"

Here's what wikipedia has to say on the subject:

Fruit Corners Fruit Roll-Ups were heavily marketed on television in America throughout the early 1980s. Most spots featured the tag line "Fruit Corners Fruit Roll-Ups: Real fruit and fun, rolled up in one." Later spots featured children innovating in the "Fruit Roll-Up Fun Factory".

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them. For example, the strawberry flavor contains no strawberries, and the only ingredient derived from fruit is concentrated pear juice.[2]

The overall marketing theme is that parents can feed their children "fun" processed foods that are based on real fruit.[2] Studies of American mothers have shown that the mothers are surprised at how sweet Fruit Roll-Ups are and how little fruit is present in them.[/b]

Until you actually jam someone's face into the ingredient list, most people will tell you these things are basically compressed fruit. Not one in a thousand will be able to list the ingredients without looking them up.

Let's talk about oatmeal. How many billions of dollars has Quaker spent teaching Americans that oatmeal lowers blood sugar and cholesterol? I'll bet you could wake up a wino sleeping on the street, ask him "what do oats do?" and he could recite "they lower blood sugar and cholesterol."

Again, just like with yoghurt, it's based on a truth. Oats in their natural form are mostly fiber, excellent roughage, and they are good for bulking up food, lowering its glycemic index. At least one of the soluble fibers is proven to lower cholesterol and in the long run will improve a variety of health markers.

But turn this healthy product over to the marketing assholes, and you have the oatmeal bar. Here's one: Go Pure Fruit and Oat Bars. Hey, it's says "Go Pure" right in the name! What could be more wholesome than that!

First ingredient on the ingredients list is sugar. A 28-gram bar contains 20 grams of carbohydrate, including a multitude of sugars and short-chain starches. Somewhere in there, I suppose, are some oats. Again, don't take my work for it. Go survey 100 mothers on your street, and ask them if oatmeal bars are a "wholesome snack". I guarantee a majority will say yes. Quaker Oats spends $40 million a year advertising this vile shit, and a good percentage of those ads are planting in your head the idea that these things are healthy. Over a lifetime, that's a lot of advertising clout.

blah, blah, blah Marketing…. blah, blah, blah Big Business… blah, blah, blah Money.

I get the point. Not everyone is equally well educated in nutrition.

I also get the point that the food industry is out to make money and it’s not their goal to provide us with ideal nutrition for our body and lifestyle. I think this is so obvious it doesn’t need to be stated… but maybe that’s my bias. So OK. It’s stated… the bug food companies don’t care if we are skinny or fat… they just want us to keep spending money.

That said… I think most of the food examples provided are fine in moderation if you live an otherwise active life. Yeah raw yogurt and fresh fruit is definitely more healthy than prepackaged Yoplait; but still cup of Yoplait after a workout or playing some basketball is perfectly fine too.

OK.

but if your six year old is 150lbs… maybe that’s a wake up call?

Again… You don’t just magically get SO FAT YOU NEED BARIATRIC SURGERY overnight.
It takes years to get that fat. It’s a lot of “work”.
(Technically it’s probably a lack of work but you get the point.)

The health care system requires that they attempt to have you lose weight before they go in surgically.

By the time you have reached the point where your kid in getting scheduled for surgery you would’ve seen doctors for year and years who would have pointed out the weight and talked about nutrition and provided resources to help educate you.

It really takes a lot of willful ignorance to get to that point.

Most people, I will reiterate, are not biochemically well educated. Our shitty educational system teaches very little real science, and it's not even mandatory after a certain point. Most people don't have a good way to separate the truth from the lies. A lifetime of being taught on TV that oatmeal is healthy, and you really only need to put the word "oat" in something to give it a veneer of good health. I'm surprised they're not selling Quaker State motor oil as a nutritional supplement. "Quaker State ... just one word different that Quaker Oats... it must be good for you!"

I agree. Most people are dumb and uneducated and don’t like to put in the effort to educate themselves.

I don’t blame the “education system”. Their job is to teach my kids how to read and write and do math.
I can handle my own kid’s health, thank you very much.

I don’t blame marketers. Their job is to sell products.

Ultimately, the BUCK STOPS HERE. I am a parent and as such I am responsible for my kids.

If you’re gonna have kids. Own it. Don’t cry and blame other people.

As I stated… getting that obese is not something that happens overnight. It’s years in the making.
By the time your kid is getting surgery you have had years to see this coming.

Willful ignorance is just another way is saying stupid failure.

[Dukasaur]

Yeah, you're very smart and everybody else is stupid. I get it.

You know, there's something I've learned investigating safety complaints at work: If one guy trips coming up the stairs, he's probably a klutz. If ten guys trip coming up the stairs, maybe there's something fundamentally wrong with how the stairs are designed.

If one American was fat, he was probably a gluttonous pig. If seventy percent of Americans are fat, maybe there's something fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe.

[2dimes]

True, but there's a few weird layers missing.

I have known thin people who go to the arches regularly.

You ranted about carrots at least once, yet Arnold says they are key to getting defined abs.

Then there's age. If you are in your twenties or younger and active enough, diet does not matter as much.

[jimboston]

Yeah, you're very smart and everybody else is stupid. I get it.

Thanks. I’m glad we agree on something.

You know, there's something I've learned investigating safety complaints at work: If one guy trips coming up the stairs, he's probably a klutz. If ten guys trip coming up the stairs, maybe there's something fundamentally wrong with how the stairs are designed.

If one American was fat, he was probably a gluttonous pig. If seventy percent of Americans are fat, maybe there's something fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe.

You are missing the point.

The thread is not about diet in general and how Americans (and Europeans too for that matter) are generally too heavy.

The thread is about how SOME YOUNG PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE GETTING SO FAT THAT THEY NEED BARIATRIC SURGERY. As stated before, you are talking so fat, as a teenager when their metabolism can generally handle a LOT of crap… and then even with interventions they can’t lose the weight. Yes, I am assuming interventions because doctors can’t just go into the operating room the day after they see a FAT kid for the first time.

This is not “I could stand to lose 20lbs”… this is not “I’m 50 years old and I work at a desk and commute 2 hours and have no time to exercise so I’m carrying 40 extra pounds”… this is not “My husband cheats and my kids don’t pay attention to me anymore, so I pop pain meds and drink wine in the afternoon and now I look like Rosie O’Donnell”.

This is “I’m 16yo and I should weigh 150lbs; but I do nothing and my parents don’t care and I’m probably taking ADHD or Depression Meds (which are overprescribed IMHO) and now I weigh 350lbs.”. You don’t get surgical intervention for weight loss unless you are severely overweight and have “tried” to lose weight more conventionally.

I stand by my position… if your kid is so fat he/she needs surgical intervention to lose weight then;
YOU HAVE FAILED AS A PARENT!
=====

Now, do we want to have a thread about the weight problem in America?

Sure. It’s really a different issue but we can talk about it.
(I mean yeah related, but the extreme example of obscenely overweight teens is such a small part of the overall weight issue that it should be looked at differently IMHO.)

One note first… yeah America is leading the world with our weight gain and obesity; but like most of our culture we are exporting it and if you look at the statistics you will see Europe, Canada, Australia… all the West is catching up. I presume other parts of the world are or will catch up as they “modernize” as well.

Causes?

These aren’t universal and obviously location and income play a role.

1) Ease of access to food in general.
We evolved in a food insecure world. Our bodies adapted to this. Now we have nearly unlimited access to food.

2) Food Preparation
Until very recently (let’s say last 60-75 or so years) even though we had good access to food we still often needed to do food preparation. Now we don’t even need to do that. Restaurants are more plentiful and prepackaged or prepared foods are available 24/7 in many places.

3) Processed Foods
Your main point. The types of foods we can consume are growing heavier in caloric intake; while not necessarily getting better in their nutritional value. Obvious culprits like refined sugar or high fructose corn syrup exist; and our brains generally send us signals that they love this shit! We evolved to gouge on sugars in the rare instances (i.e. when fruits were ripe) when we had access to these foods… so our brains still tell our bodies to “go for it”.

You add those “empty” calories to all the additives and chemicals we use to color, flavor, and preserve these foods? I don’t even pretend to know how these things can impact your body. Some are probably bad, especially in quantity. Some likely f*ck up how your body processes food. Studies are imperfect or not done… and even when a study shows something like fake sugar messes digestion people still use it.

4) Lack of Exercise / Sedentary Lifestyle
This is probably the biggest single fact IMHO… and it is the thing that has most radically changed within the last 30-50 years. Obviously we evolved as people who moved and worked constantly. Even as we industrialized we still moved, stood up, worked. In the last 30-50 years the % of people behind desks or in chairs has increased. We drive more and walk less. Even short walks say from the train station to the office happen less… more people just drive to the office, or some don’t even leave home. In some places kids seem to be less active… not outside running around. This may be because screens, but it also is just cultural changes in some places.

5) Screens
Yeah… screens are a big factor. They enable us to have sedentary jobs, they encourage us to ‘sit and watch’ instead of exercise. That’s obvious. That said… I watch TV while I walk in the treadmill. There are days I just won’t walk outside because it’s cold or rain or too dark. So screens in this case help by making my treadmill exercise more pleasant it encourages/enables me to walk more.

The bigger problem with screens is how they affect our brains. Two ways I can think of…

a) Games and Social Media impact dopamine levels in our brains. This can affect behavior in numerous ways. You can get caught up in the games and social media shit and this can distract you from other stuff… which may impact your ability or time to exercise or eat healthy. That said, many people are starting to “gamify” exercise. So those screens can be used for good… but you have to constantly be on guard. (For example I am wasting what 20 minutes typing this response, s]which I could’ve instead used to do something productive.)

b) Screens have a negative impact on sleep. At least if/when the are used at night and right before bed. Studies show a negative impact on sleep. If you don’t get proper sleep your body rhythms get fucked up and you metabolism gets fucked up and you gain weight.

6) Medications / Pills
I am thinking ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, and even Pain medication. I think this is also a very recent phenomena. I think these meds can be beneficial to individuals in very specific circumstances and when properly and regularly monitored. That said, IMHO they are all over prescribed and once prescribed they tend to continue being used past the point where they may be necessary.

Obviously not all of these pills have the same affect… but I know several people (some close some more distant) who either take pills like these or have kids who take these pills. Often (but not always and depending on the specific medicine/condition which I don’t always know) I see that the person taking the medication gains weight. I don’t know if the medication impacts a person’s eating habits, or if the medication directly impacts the metabolism of the recipient. I just have seen enough of this to see a correlation. This in combination with the how many people are taking pills strikes me as a bad combination.

7) Shame
Shame is good. We used to shame people when they “did bad things”. People had to go to the Welfare Office to get their check… now they get an EBT card and there is no shame so they are happy to be on Welfare their whole lives. I can find other examples where lack of community “shame” leads to negative behavior.

The same applies to weight. I was always “the fat kid” in school. I look back at my pictures now and I see a kid who was over 6 feet and weighed 185lbs… and I look skinny to me now; but I had a pudge and my friends had flat stomachs and so I was the “fat” kid. I was likely “fatter” before my high school growth spurt… but I was never obese. I worked and had access to money and ate a lot of crap. That said the “shame” of being “the fat kid” likely helped prevent me from getting even fatter.

Nowadays you can’t call someone fat. If you do you are ostracized for being mean. In some ways it is good that we are trying to limit “bullying” but some parts of society have taken this too far. Many celebrities (i.e. Lizzo as the most obvious example) are held in high esteem and a celebrated for being “fat and beautiful”. Sorry Lizzo, you can sing pretty good and for a big girl you can move… but you are obscenely obese and you will likely die of heart disease before you are 60.

Social media is full of fat people who are “proud” of their bodies, and fat people who think society should bend for them. There’s a whole series of videos you can find were “large people advocates” go on and complain how companies should change just to accommodate them. I’m talking about shit like… a woman who is 5’6” 300+ and complains that airlines should make wider seats or let her get two seats for the price of one. I’m sorry hun… I’m 6ft 2in. There is NOTHING I can do about my height… but you could drop 100lbs+ plus if you ate a few less twinkies and went for a walk once in awhile.

I’m not saying we should scream “fatty” at every kid who is overweight… but I do think we should stop letting people lie and pretend that being obese is “just who they are” and “completely out of their control”.

So in summary Duk.

Yes… I agree there are societal factors that make gaining weight easy. I agree there are conditions and circumstances that may make losing weight hard. I agree that processed food and the greed of food corporations is one of several factors.

I also believe they the SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR in determining who will be fat or obese; who will need surgery or not… is INDIVIDUAL ACTION.

At the end of the day you are a human being with self will. As such you can DECIDE to eat another Twinkie… or you can decide to go for a walk. Society does NOT make that decision for you.. Food corporations do not make that decision for you. Apple, Google, TikTok do not make those decisions for you.

… and if you are a minor… then it is your Parent’s responsibility to guide you in that decision making process. The parent’s ability to guide you is a sliding scale… starting at 100% decision making responsibility when you are an infant; and eventually going to zero (hopefully) when you are a fully functional adult member of society.

So yeah… my position remains unchanged.

Using your broken stair analogy. Yeah OK if the stairs are broke it should be fixed… but meanwhile if I see ten guys tripping going up those stairs; maybe I should use some judgement and be a bit extra careful when I have to go up?

[Dukasaur]

You are missing the point.

The thread is not about diet in general and how Americans (and Europeans too for that matter) are generally too heavy.

(...)

Now, do we want to have a thread about the weight problem in America?

Sure. It’s really a different issue but we can talk about it.

I don't think it is a different issue. People are getting fatter, and sooner. It used to be fairly normal if you got to 70, then 50, then 40. Now we're seeing it with people on the south side of 20. It's the same problem, just spreading farther and faster.

Causes?
1) Ease of access to food in general.
We evolved in a food insecure world. Our bodies adapted to this. Now we have nearly unlimited access to food.
2) Food Preparation
Until very recently (let’s say last 60-75 or so years) even though we had good access to food we still often needed to do food preparation. Now we don’t even need to do that. Restaurants are more plentiful and prepackaged or prepared foods are available 24/7 in many places.
3) Processed Foods
Your main point. The types of foods we can consume are growing heavier in caloric intake; while not necessarily getting better in their nutritional value. Obvious culprits like refined sugar or high fructose corn syrup exist; and our brains generally send us signals that they love this shit! We evolved to gouge on sugars in the rare instances (i.e. when fruits were ripe) when we had access to these foods… so our brains still tell our bodies to “go for it”.
You add those “empty” calories to all the additives and chemicals we use to color, flavor, and preserve these foods? I don’t even pretend to know how these things can impact your body. Some are probably bad, especially in quantity. Some likely f*ck up how your body processes food. Studies are imperfect or not done… and even when a study shows something like fake sugar messes digestion people still use it.

4) Lack of Exercise / Sedentary Lifestyle
This is probably the biggest single fact IMHO… and it is the thing that has most radically changed within the last 30-50 years.

5) Screens
Yeah… screens are a big factor. They enable us to have sedentary jobs, they encourage us to ‘sit and watch’ instead of exercise. That’s obvious. That said… I watch TV while I walk in the treadmill. There are days I just won’t walk outside because it’s cold or rain or too dark. So screens in this case help by making my treadmill exercise more pleasant it encourages/enables me to walk more.

6) Medications / Pills
I am thinking ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, and even Pain medication. I think this is also a very recent phenomena. I think these meds can be beneficial to individuals in very specific circumstances and when properly and regularly monitored. That said, IMHO they are all over prescribed and once prescribed they tend to continue being used past the point where they may be necessary.
7) Shame
Shame is good. We used to shame people when they “did bad things”. People had to go to the Welfare Office to get their check… now they get an EBT card and there is no shame so they are happy to be on Welfare their whole lives. I can find other examples where lack of community “shame” leads to negative behavior.
(...)
I’m not saying we should scream “fatty” at every kid who is overweight… but I do think we should stop letting people lie and pretend that being obese is “just who they are” and “completely out of their control”.

So in summary Duk.

Yes… I agree there are societal factors that make gaining weight easy. I agree there are conditions and circumstances that may make losing weight hard. I agree that processed food and the greed of food corporations is one of several factors.

Good summation. I did some heavy-handed trimming for brevity, but in general I agree with most of what you say.

About the only (relatively minor) quibble I have is where you say Point 4 is the biggest/most important one. I'd say 3 is the biggest, followed by 2, with 4 being third at most. But other than that, yeah, you've correctly listed all the problems.

Here's where I really have a problem:

At the end of the day you are a human being with self will. As such you can DECIDE to eat another Twinkie… or you can decide to go for a walk.

Yeah, you can make that decision. Once, twice, maybe a thousand times.

But a good outcome depends on making the right decision for an infinite number of times. And will power is not infinite. Eventually you will succumb to the pictures of doughnuts that stare at you every time you go for a coffee. Eventually you will get tired and skip the walk.

Studies prove that will power just can't hold out forever. If you're strong-willed, you will last longer, but as long as your environment hammers you with temptation at every juncture, you will give in eventually.

I'm a former smoker. I'm more than 14 years smoke-free, and I'm very happy with that, but I'm not slapping myself on the back and pretending it's because of my superhuman steel will. If I still lived in the world of the 1960's, with an ashtray in every room of every house, with people smoking at work, in hospitals even, in theatres and churches and grocery stores, with cigarette ads in every magazine and on every TV show, I would have relapsed by now. My non-relapse success depends very much on the fact that nowadays there are few opportunities for relapse. When I pass someone smoking, that sweet smell still calls out to me. But I keep walking and in a couple seconds the temptation is (literally) left behind. But if I was in a movie theatre with someone continuously smoking beside me, would I hold out for two hours? Maybe. Maybe the first, second, third time. Maybe the hundredth time. But the day would come when I would be tired and depressed and that longing would be too much to bear...

So, yeah. I'm happy that I have not had even one cigarette for more than 14 years, but I don't pretend it's my iron will. Largely it's because moments of temptation are few, far apart, and brief. And it's public policy -- coercive public policy, that you hate -- which delivered to us this world where we don't have to be bombarded with temptation all day, every day.

With food, not so good. Periods of temptation are more frequent and longer in duration. Plus, food is more insidious because unlike cigarettes you can't pledge never to go near it ever again. At some point you will have to eat. If you're having four ribs, why not six? There's 20 on a rack, and the wife will only eat 3, so if you pledge to only eat 4, that leaves 13 ribs that you have to wrap up and put in the fridge before temptation gets the better of you. Or me, or whoever we're talking about.

Anyway, these things are tested in controlled experiments. Some people resist temptation better than others, but nobody is foolproof. Build a world where there's a cheeseburger literally on every corner, and people will succumb sooner or later.

I haven't said much about your point about exercise, but I will say a couple things.

One is that the world's healthiest populations don't, as a general rule, spend a lot of time seeking out exercise. They just live in a world where cars are few and walking is considered normal.

The second is about a comment I heard on the radio the other day, a talk show about a completely unrelated topic, which stopped me in my tracks. Don't even remember what the subject of the talk show was, but at one point the guest said, "we lived in a crappy neighbourhood back then, so I couldn't let my kids play outside." It was like a gut punch to me, because this wasn't some crazy person. It was a fairly normal, well-adjusted successful person, and she thought the rules of life were such that playing outside is something that we can only allow in nice neighbourhoods. It kind of blows my mind, but this is what our society had degenerated into, where people are so disconnected from their communities that they think normal social interactions are a dangerous thing (except in secure, sanitized gated suburbs.)

[jimboston]

Here's where I really have a problem:

At the end of the day you are a human being with self will. As such you can DECIDE to eat another Twinkie… or you can decide to go for a walk.

Yeah, you can make that decision. Once, twice, maybe a thousand times.

But a good outcome depends on making the right decision for an infinite number of times. And will power is not infinite. Eventually you will succumb to the pictures of doughnuts that stare at you every time you go for a coffee. Eventually you will get tired and skip the walk.

Studies prove that will power just can't hold out forever. If you're strong-willed, you will last longer, but as long as your environment hammers you with temptation at every juncture, you will give in eventually.

If this were true EVERYONE in the USA would be obese and no one would be in shape. You can hold out “forever”… oh and forever isn’t forever; it’s only like 70-100 years (if you’re lucky)

I'm a former smoker. I'm more than 14 years smoke-free, and I'm very happy with that, but I'm not slapping myself on the back and pretending it's because of my superhuman steel will.

I mean you should be happy and you should be slapping yourself on the back… because yes there are still people who smoke (and chain smoke) even though it’s not ‘socially acceptable’ like it was.

If I still lived in the world of the 1960's, with an ashtray in every room of every house, with people smoking at work, in hospitals even, in theatres and churches and grocery stores, with cigarette ads in every magazine and on every TV show, I would have relapsed by now. My non-relapse success depends very much on the fact that nowadays there are few opportunities for relapse. When I pass someone smoking, that sweet smell still calls out to me. But I keep walking and in a couple seconds the temptation is (literally) left behind. But if I was in a movie theatre with someone continuously smoking beside me, would I hold out for two hours? Maybe. Maybe the first, second, third time. Maybe the hundredth time. But the day would come when I would be tired and depressed and that longing would be too much to bear...

Maybe… or maybe not. You don’t know.

That said… yeah can society make changes to reduce “temptation” and thereby limit behaviors that have “negative” outcomes. Yes. We can.

Do I think changes could be beneficial to help reducing the percentage of people who…
*smoke
*drink and drive
*eat to the point of obesity

Yes. I do.

Yet free will still comes into play. Even with all the societal changes around smoking there are still people who smoke 2 packs a day. Even with societal changes around drinking and driving, we still have drunk drivers. If we can change how “Big Food” works we could reduce the % of people who are obese and I would agree this would be good.

Until that happens I have to live and function in the world that we live in currently. As a parent I need to watch out for my kids and teach them the best I can and guide them to make good decisions. This includes health decisions. So when I see my 6yo starting to pork up… do I give him another Twinkie; or do I get him to exercise? If he keeps gaining weight and at 10yo he’s 70lbs overweight do I do nothing and just blame “Big Food”. No. Parents who have teenagers that are SO FAT THEY NEED BARIATRIC SURGERY did just this. It was NOT an overnight thing. It was something they saw for years.

So if you (i.e. any parent) sees this happening and doesn’t fix it… you have FAILED AS A PARENT.

So, yeah. I'm happy that I have not had even one cigarette for more than 14 years, but I don't pretend it's my iron will. Largely it's because moments of temptation are few, far apart, and brief. And it's public policy -- coercive public policy, that you hate -- which delivered to us this world where we don't have to be bombarded with temptation all day, every day.

Who says I hate “coercive public policy”.

I don’t love it, because my inner-Libertarian is opposed on moral principles. That said, I recognize when there is a need and often these public policies can be justified by Libertarian values.

Cigarette Taxes - I don’t like money going to general funds… but I am fine with these tax dollars going to pay for medical costs for cancer (instead of me being taxed for medical costs for cancer). Cigarette taxes then help limit consumption.
Smoking Bans - Yeah… your smoking in a movie theater impedes my rights. I’d be ok with “smoking” and “non-smoking” venues… but you get the point.

When it comes to say “high fructose corn syrup”… we subsidize this which offends my inner Libertarian. Then we have to foot the bill for bariatric surgery… so i get hit twice.

I am not opposed to all coercive policies.

With food, not so good. Periods of temptation are more frequent and longer in duration. Plus, food is more insidious because unlike cigarettes you can't pledge never to go near it ever again. At some point you will have to eat. If you're having four ribs, why not six? There's 20 on a rack, and the wife will only eat 3, so if you pledge to only eat 4, that leaves 13 ribs that you have to wrap up and put in the fridge before temptation gets the better of you. Or me, or whoever we're talking about.

Anyway, these things are tested in controlled experiments. Some people resist temptation better than others, but nobody is foolproof. Build a world where there's a cheeseburger literally on every corner, and people will succumb sooner or later.

I haven't said much about your point about exercise, but I will say a couple things.

One is that the world's healthiest populations don't, as a general rule, spend a lot of time seeking out exercise. They just live in a world where cars are few and walking is considered normal.

The second is about a comment I heard on the radio the other day, a talk show about a completely unrelated topic, which stopped me in my tracks. Don't even remember what the subject of the talk show was, but at one point the guest said, "we lived in a crappy neighbourhood back then, so I couldn't let my kids play outside." It was like a gut punch to me, because this wasn't some crazy person. It was a fairly normal, well-adjusted successful person, and she thought the rules of life were such that playing outside is something that we can only allow in nice neighbourhoods. It kind of blows my mind, but this is what our society had degenerated into, where people are so disconnected from their communities that they think normal social interactions are a dangerous thing (except in secure, sanitized gated suburbs.)

I mean yeah this is all true and I agree.

Ultimately we agree on a lot.

That said, at the end we live in the world we live in and we have to take responsibility for our actions (or for our kids).

So yeah…. still failed parents.

[Votanic]

Even people with 30-inch waists and 6-pack abs eventually die.
...and I bet a lot of them lie on their death beds in deep regret, longing for all the cakes, pies, and doughnuts they never ate... but by then it is too late.