Solar System ERROR FIX v1.0.2 (w/ PSD files) [Quenched]

[maxdetjens]

So the hot topic of the Jump Gate bonuses.

All jump gates start neutral. Not only does it mean no disadvantages out of the gate for any player (unless they dumb luck into a sub-region bonus) it also makes the remaining territories evenly devisable by 6, 5, 4, 3, and 2 players.

I’ve gotten the following comments.

…the Jump Gate bonuses are a bit high. Try this
1=-1, 2=1, 3=-2, 4=2, 5=-3, 6=3, 7=4

They were crazy high before I got this suggestion. After which i switched them to what they are now, which is very similar to thus except the +'s and -'s are swapped for the first 6.

I think the minuses on the jump gates are too big…snip snip snip….Maybe something like -1,0,-1,-1,-2,-1,0….

That’s not too bad. I could live with that.

what about no bonus for Jump Gates.

... one all encompassing bonus.

leave it alone and but a negative bonus somewhere on every other territory

My opinion for the Jump Gates are just having each jumpgate worth 1.

Seems like a good strategy would be to take them as fast as possible, only to be stopped by everyone else with the same idea.

...keep the ascending positives, but change the negatives all to -1. This would provide an incentive to fort the JumpGates and the effects wouldn't be as bad (similar to having the single irradiated territory within a continent bonus on Apocalypse).

That translates to 1=1; 2=-1; 3=2; 4=-1; 5=3; 6=-1; 7=4 . I can get behind that. It provides a nice bonus and a disincentive to just horde jump gates.

EDIT 2007-07-05 (version 0.: I have since changed the jump gate bonus to Night Strike's suggestion

Any other suggestions? I’m looking for an actual list of numbers and actual arguments and examples. “too high” or “to weird” doesn’t help me.

NOTE: THIS POST ACTS AS A SUB-THREAD. I UPDATE THIS POST WITH YOUR RESPONSES.

[Bad Speler]

First, let me say the new legend box looks great. Here is what I think remains to be done:

- In the legend, inner planets & moons, drop the 'S', theres only Earth's Moon in your map.
- The Uranus army shadows are still pixelated.
- Personally, i prefered the way the old asteroid belt looked.
- There are sub bonuses for each region (except asteroid belt). If the main bonuses are in the World 2.1 format (owning the total is all the sub regions plus a few more extra armies), which I think they are, then the TNOs are off, as the sub-bonuses, 3+2+1=6, which is more then owning the entire region which you have marked 5. I hope you understood that cause i didnt

My opinion for the Jump Gates are just having each jumpgate worth 1.

[maxdetjens]

In the legend, inner planets & moons, drop the 'S', theres only Earth's Moon in your map.

Check

The Uranus army shadows are still pixelated.

Just noticed that myself

Personally, i prefered the way the old asteroid belt looked.

Hmm. Well Thats one vote for old way to my one vote for new way. Anyone else have a tie breaker?

There are sub bonuses for each region (except asteroid belt). If the main bonuses are in the World 2.1 format (owning the total is all the sub regions plus a few more extra armies), which I think they are, then the TNOs are off, as the sub-bonuses, 3+2+1=6, which is more then owning the entire region which you have marked 5.

Ah. Yes well not quite the 3 bonus (kuiper belt) includes the 2 bonus (plutinos) so 3+1 = 4. Except that if you actually had all the sub regions you'd have the whole region. So Since you didn't catch that it might mean that its not very clear in the key.

My opinion for the Jump Gates are just having each jumpgate worth 1.

I'll assume you mean each gate gets you an additional +1. I'll add that to the list.

[Night Strike]

I immediately said "Beautiful" when I saw the legend box. Great work there. I wonder if that little circle thing could be used as your JumpGate army circles??

I like how some of the territories are in the "dead of space" without a bonus. It's a nice touch.

I just thought of this: will some of your long territory names fit in the drop down menu while taking your turn??

Keep the numbers on those two "objects".

Completely drop the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud bonuses: let's give Pluto some credit since it got taken off the list of planets. My real reason is b/c the bonuses don't add correctly and it's too easy to fort those bottom territories. Make Pluto and Charon a +2 sub-bonus.

You may want to style up your title font/color/etc.

As for the JumpGates. I kinda like the bonuses how they currently are. It's truly unique. (By the way, thanks for finally providing the great explanation at the bottom of page 6.) To avoid the +3/-3 dilemma, you could keep the ascending positives, but change the negatives all to -1. This would provide an incentive to fort the JumpGates and the effects wouldn't be as bad (similar to having the single irradiated territory within a continent bonus on Apocalypse).

EDIT: I prefer the old Asteroid Belt.

[maxdetjens]

I immediately said "Beautiful" when I saw the legend box. Great work there. I wonder if that little circle thing could be used as your JumpGate army circles??

I'll give it a shot. I'm already working on a small update that has that circle replaced with a star (a salute to CC)

I just thought of this: will some of your long territory names fit in the drop down menu while taking your turn??

I dunno. How long can the names be? It seems like the box dynamically sizes. If not I could abbreviate in the box H.O. of Jupiter for example.

Completely drop the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud bonuses: let's give Pluto some credit since it got taken off the list of planets. My real reason is b/c the bonuses don't add correctly and it's too easy to fort those bottom territories. Make Pluto and Charon a +2 sub-bonus.

The bonuses do add correctly its just not clear that the 2 bonus is a sub-sub region in the key. I can easily drop the Oort Cloud bonus. I'm more attached to the Kuiper Belt. [/quote]

You may want to style up your title font/color/etc.[/qoute] added to the list

As for the JumpGates. I kinda like the bonuses how they currently are. It's truly unique. (By the way, thanks for finally providing the great explanation at the bottom of page 6.) To avoid the +3/-3 dilemma, you could keep the ascending positives, but change the negatives all to -1. This would provide an incentive to fort the JumpGates and the effects wouldn't be as bad (similar to having the single irradiated territory within a continent bonus on Apocalypse).

Good one.

EDIT: I prefer the old Asteroid Belt.

reluctantly added to the list

[Bad Speler]

There are sub bonuses for each region (except asteroid belt). If the main bonuses are in the World 2.1 format (owning the total is all the sub regions plus a few more extra armies), which I think they are, then the TNOs are off, as the sub-bonuses, 3+2+1=6, which is more then owning the entire region which you have marked 5.

Ah. Yes well not quite the 3 bonus (kuiper belt) includes the 2 bonus (plutinos) so 3+1 = 4. Except that if you actually had all the sub regions you'd have the whole region. So Since you didn't catch that it might mean that its not very clear in the key.

Maybe thats why I didnt catch it...or the fact that its about 2 a.m. in my timezone

My opinion for the Jump Gates are just having each jumpgate worth 1.

I'll assume you mean each gate gets you an additional +1. I'll add that to the list.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

A suggestion to shorten names of orbits, how about Neptune high orbit, Neptune low orbit, Uranus high orbit, etc. It gets rid of the word 'of.' Not much, but its something.

[maxdetjens]

A suggestion to shorten names of orbits, how about Neptune high orbit, Neptune low orbit, Uranus high orbit, etc. It gets rid of the word 'of.' Not much, but its something.

Added to list

[maxdetjens]

67 Territories, 7 regions, 6 sub-regions, Alternating Jump Gate Bonus

Changes:
- In the legend, inner planets & moons, dropped the 'S', theres only Earth's Moon
- The Uranus army shadows are un-pixelated.
- Switched back to old asteroid belt look
- Clarified TNO sub region bonuses in key by replacing the TNO region.
with the kiuper belt.
- Replaced Sedna with Varuna because Sedna is a Sattered disk object
ant not really part of the Kuiper Belt. Eris is no longer part of the region because it is also a scattered disk object. (but its the biggest thing out there so It seems like it must be shown
- Fancy new Jump gate army circle
- added just a dash of flavor to the Title
- Shortened Orbit names by removing of (Neptune Low Orbit vs. Low Orbit of Neptune) They fit a bit nigher now.
- tweeked legend graphic to give it a bit more CC flare.
- switched JG bonuses to Night Strike's suggestion
- Changed the connections on JG-S. its now even more important to hold.
- prettied up my signature
- straightened as much of the text as possible
- Fit and finish on the routes and positions of army circles
- reworked some connections in the Kuiper Belt area. Its still a cluster-F but it now fills the void left by the shorted key and looks "spacier"

Remaining Tasks (THIS LIST IS UPDATED UNTIL THE NEXT VERSION)
- Make Small Map
- XML
- Get the masses to sign off on bonus structure
- Some of the route from low orbit to a gas giant surface truncate at the edge of the planet. Fix!
- Titan is too close to the key
- moving signature down to the bottom right (the sun).
- connect Rings and Saturn Low Orbit with heavier line
- add an 's to all the planets that have orbits (i.e Saturn's Low Orbit).
- Two minor spelling mistakes: in the legend, its Kuiper belt, and in the asteroid belt, its Gefion family

[thegeneralpublic]

Why should one be able to go right to Uranus without passing through Saturn and Jupiter first? I think it would a) cut down on the attack routes and b) help the clutter if you actually had to attack the planets in order rather than being able to skip over Saturn and Jupiter.

[Kaplowitz]

It looks a LOT better, but i have a question. The things in the center (and Eris) are not part of anything, right?

[maxdetjens]

It looks a LOT better, but i have a question. The things in the center (and Eris) are not part of anything, right?

I like how some of the territories are in the "dead of space" without a bonus. It's a nice touch.

Yes - the dwarf planet Eris, The Centaurs (Charkilo and Chiron) the Trojan Asteroids (divided into Greek and Trojan camps) and the high orbits are not part of any region. The jump gates are, in a technical way, their own region.

[Night Strike]

Why should one be able to go right to Uranus without passing through Saturn and Jupiter first? I think it would a) cut down on the attack routes and b) help the clutter if you actually had to attack the planets in order rather than being able to skip over Saturn and Jupiter.

If you go back to one of the early versions, you will notice that there were not enough attack routes between the gas planets. This caused to many bonuses (if you held the outer planets) with only a few areas to fortify. I think this layout will provide an incentive to keep your areas better fortified (instead of 1 army per territory) b/c of the multiple attack routes. It should provide for a different play than most of the other current maps.

By the way, this version is very much improved......it's looking much better very quickly.

[snufkin]

I like the warp gates.. maybe you can try some shades or whatever to make them look even more sci-fi and notably different from planets.

but it could get worse cause they look pretty ok atm - just an idea to try if you have the time for it later.

[Night Strike]

I like the warp gates.. maybe you can try some shades or whatever to make them look even more sci-fi and notably different from planets.

but it could get worse cause they look pretty ok atm - just an idea to try if you have the time for it later.

That brings up a good point. "Warp Gates" may sound more sci-fi/spacey than "Jump Gates". It's your map and your choice, but you may want to consider changing it. Or change your poll to ask it.

I do like the Jump Gate design very much.

You may want to consider moving your signature down to the bottom right (the sun). It would make it stand out less.

Are the Rings and Saturn Low Orbit connected??

It may flow better if you add an 's to all the planets that have orbits (i.e Saturn's Low Orbit). (It still looks better better than the old "of".)

Good work.

[Coleman]

I think doing the xml for this would be about the most insanely fun thing there could be if you are dreading it maxdetjens.

[Night Strike]

I think doing the xml for this would be about the most insanely fun thing there could be if you are dreading it maxdetjens.

I guess Coleman likes the map. By the way, I wish I knew how to do all of this: from design to xml. Of course, it's not like I have the time to learn anyway.

[maxdetjens]

Why should one be able to go right to Uranus without passing through Saturn and Jupiter first? I think it would a) cut down on the attack routes and b) help the clutter if you actually had to attack the planets in order rather than being able to skip over Saturn and Jupiter.

If you go back to one of the early versions, you will notice that there were not enough attack routes between the gas planets. This caused to many bonuses (if you held the outer planets) with only a few areas to fortify. I think this layout will provide an incentive to keep your areas better fortified (instead of 1 army per territory) b/c of the multiple attack routes. It should provide for a different play than most of the other current maps.

By the way, this version is very much improved......it's looking much better very quickly.

Thanks for fielding that one. I thought my head might explode.

[maxdetjens]

I like the warp gates.. maybe you can try some shades or whatever to make them look even more sci-fi and notably different from planets.
but it could get worse cause they look pretty ok atm - just an idea to try if you have the time for it later.

I'll try to add some juice to them next version. If y'all hate them it will be easy to roll back the change.

That brings up a good point. "Warp Gates" may sound more sci-fi/spacey than "Jump Gates". It's your map and your choice, but you may want to consider changing it. Or change your poll to ask it.

This map is vaguely inspired by Piers Anthony's 5 volume "Bio of a Space Tyrant" Which is set in a not super distant future where the human countries (as of the late cold war period) left earth and moved into space. So you get places like the United States of Jupiter. In any case by the end the analog of the Japanese invent Jump Gates. Which were a little unstable. (hence the bonuses). So I'm going to go with Jump Gates. (I think it was the Babaloyn 5 term as well). I figure this wont be the last space map (perhaps not even mine) so I'll have a chance to use spacey words like warp other times.

[maxdetjens]

...Or change your poll to ask it.

I cant see that i have control over the poll anymore. Do i have to start a new thread?

[Coleman]

...Or change your poll to ask it.

I cant see that i have control over the poll anymore. Do i have to start a new thread?

You have to PM (Private Message) AndyDufresne or Keyogi and ask them to remove it. It takes a while but it beats starting a new topic.

[Night Strike]

I never read or saw those. Hence why I said it was your map. I'm a Stargate and Battlestar Galactica fan, so that's why warp sounded a little better to me (and why I'm paying attention to this map). By the way, I think this map is thus far much better than the current space map (which I don't like playing on).

Personally, I don't think the Jump Gates need anymore spicing up, but who knows what you'll pull out of your hat for the next version.

[maxdetjens]

You may want to consider moving your signature down to the bottom right (the sun). It would make it stand out less.

Added to the list

Are the Rings and Saturn Low Orbit connected??

Yes, but i can see why you ask. Added to the list

It may flow better if you add an 's to all the planets that have orbits (i.e Saturn's Low Orbit). (It still looks better better than the old "of".)

True but making the longest word longer might be more cramping than having "of". I'll try next version.

[maxdetjens]

I never read or saw those. Hence why I said it was your map. I'm a Stargate and Battlestar Galactica fan, so that's why warp sounded a little better to me (and why I'm paying attention to this map). By the way, I think this map is thus far much better than the current space map (which I don't like playing on).

BSG is pretty awesome. Bio of a space tyrant is a set of books. Their pretty good but not great. Piers Anthony's writing devolves sometimes into descriptions of *ehhem* questionable sexual activity. Which is too bad because its a bit of a distraction. In any case the premise is awesome - Earthlings expand into the solar system and over the next couple of generations repeat the same history from the late 1800 through the middle of the cold war. Except that our protagonist rises from the ranks of a hatian boat person and eventually overthrows the analogue of the American government and then rules as a benevolent dictator.

The other reason I made this map you jsut touched on. Space is, well, all over. yet most of the maps are more or less earthly. The one exception is space. Which is fine but its a kinda SpellJammer-ish sorta space. It just doesn't hold my attention.

Personally, I don't think the Jump Gates need anymore spicing up, but who knows what you'll pull out of your hat for the next version.

I'm not holding out a lot of hope either but its a legitimate request that i try.

[maxdetjens]

I think doing the xml for this would be about the most insanely fun thing there could be if you are dreading it maxdetjens.

I might take you up on that. I'm going to give it a go, but I'm sure I'll have questions. In fact - can you tell me which maps have some territories set to neutral, so that i might see the syntax?

And for my general knowledge is there a syntax bible or DTD or something somewhere?

[yeti_c]

I think doing the xml for this would be about the most insanely fun thing there could be if you are dreading it maxdetjens.

I might take you up on that. I'm going to give it a go, but I'm sure I'll have questions. In fact - can you tell me which maps have some territories set to neutral, so that i might see the syntax?

And for my general knowledge is there a syntax bible or DTD or something somewhere?

I've an .xsd you can have - I've not updated it since the latest changes though (Keep meaning to do that) - If you PM me your email address - I will send it to you tomorrow (I'll update it too).

Also - Battle for Australia has loads of neutrals - as does Age Of Merchants (Albeit only one)

C.

PS Forgot to say - love the map... first time I saw this one today... nice work.