Norwegian Prison System

[InkL0sed]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 20,00.html

Thoughts, concerns, prejudicial rants, etc.

[Snorri1234]

I think it's disgusting. Prisoners should suffer and be beaten daily because I care more about my animalistic notions of petty revenge than about things like justice or humanity.


Screw your morality, I'm going for all-caps rage posts.

[Pirlo]

I dunno, but prison is meant to be punishment and correction at the same time.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I think it's disgusting. Prisoners should suffer and be beaten daily because I care more about my animalistic notions of petty revenge than about things like justice or humanity.


Screw your morality, I'm going for all-caps rage posts.

I don't think I'd call revenge an animal trait... I think that's solely a human characteristic.

-TG

[saxitoxin]

I support the complete abolition of all prisons* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmsko6oZjG8&t=4m7s), however, taking a miniscule data set like Norway or Liechtenstein and attempting to extrapolate a broader conclusion is probably not a good planning tool.

This is not intended to be a slight on Norway, however, it is too small of a population to be statistically relevant to any topic, unless that topic is a study of the Norwegian language.

-IIRC, Turkey has a lower per-capita crime rate than Norway. As anyone who has seen Midnight Express can attest, the Turkish prison system is not exactly badminton and massages (unless you count the shower scenes). If we want an even lower crime rate than Norway should we emulate the prisons of The Turk?

-Sweden has one of the highest rape rates in the western world, rivaling even world rape capital Australia, but a country with less than 10 million inhabitants provides too small of a sample to make a conclusion that Swedes are prone to sociopathy.

[PLAYER57832]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2000920,00.html

Thoughts, concerns, prejudicial rants, etc.

It's an experiment, so see if it works. That said, I don't believe it could be replicated here in the US. Honestly, I would not want them to even try that here.

And... I HIGHLY doubt the recent shooter will wind up in this place!

[InkL0sed]

That's a low-security facility. Did you read the descriptions of the maximum-security prisons?

[Snorri1234]

It's an experiment, so see if it works. That said, I don't believe it could be replicated here in the US. Honestly, I would not want them to even try that here.

Why not? Aside from political realities making sure it never happens is there any reason that a system like this can not be implemented in the US and/or shouldn't be implemented?

[saxitoxin]

Found it!

Crimes Per Capita, Norway: 71.9 per 1,000 people
Crimes Per Capita, Turkey: 4.11252 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Norway/Turkey/Crime

Therefore, based on the prevailing logic in this thread, Norway would see a 15x lower crime rate if they replaced their "eco-friendly residential chalets" with 10-man cells and punitive beatings.



If Norway's prison guards gang-raped prisoners the tragic shooting could have been averted. If only we'd known. If only we'd known.

[saxitoxin]

Oh damn, if Bulgaria modeled their prison system after Norway's their auto theft rate would double! Their fraud rate would triple!

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Bulgaria/Norway/Crime

If the U.S. modeled their prisons after Norway's prisons their auto theft rate would increase 31%! Software piracy would increase 45%!

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Norway/United-States/Crime

Naturally these are completely valid conclusions to draw between prison conditions and crime rate. An article written by a music journalist specializing in coverage of the Eurovision Song Contest (http://williamleeadams.com/biography.html) said so, after all.

la la la la

[BigBallinStalin]

Saxi, I know you're playing around, but you're failing to account for 1) number of police, 2) certainty of punishment, 3) swiftness of punishment, and 4) the police strategies employed for reducing crime. These are important variables that you're ignoring; therefore, your sophist argument needs to account for these variables before it can be viewed as credible.

[saxitoxin]

Saxi, I know you're playing around, but you're failing to account for 1) number of police, 2) certainty of punishment, 3) swiftness of punishment, and 4) the police strategies employed for reducing crime. These are important variables that you're ignoring; therefore, your sophist argument needs to account for these variables before it can be viewed as credible.

I don't care about facts or critical thinking. If it said TIME on the masthead then none of those things matter! TIME only recruits the most experienced Eurovision Song Contest journalists to pen articles about Norwegian jurisprudence. (SRSLY, gang, when I read his byline I laughed so hard I almost had a miscarriage.)

Pro Tip - If reading slavish western media it's always helpful to look at the bios of the "journalists." So-called "reporters" in the west may be covering the war against Libya this week after having spent the preceding 5 years reviewing plays in the West End or crop yields in Manitoba. Assigning the absolutely least qualified people to write the most critical stories is one way the west maintains control over reporting through informal mechanisms. Lacking topical background or networked sources, a cross-assigned reporter is most likely to simply fall-back on regurgitating the contents of a media relations-office produced press kit. The embargo + inside access is another mode of control. Here's an example: http://cryptome.org/0005/schmidle/schmidle-access.htm

[Snorri1234]

Found it!

Crimes Per Capita, Norway: 71.9 per 1,000 people
Crimes Per Capita, Turkey: 4.11252 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Norway/Turkey/Crime

Therefore, based on the prevailing logic in this thread, Norway would see a 15x lower crime rate if they replaced their "eco-friendly residential chalets" with 10-man cells and punitive beatings.



If Norway's prison guards gang-raped prisoners the tragic shooting could have been averted. If only we'd known. If only we'd known.

Interestingly enough, despite Turkey having a lower amount of crimes per capita they have far more people in prison per capita.

Saxi, I know you're playing around, but you're failing to account for 1) number of police, 2) certainty of punishment, 3) swiftness of punishment, and 4) the police strategies employed for reducing crime. These are important variables that you're ignoring; therefore, your sophist argument needs to account for these variables before it can be viewed as credible.

Hah! That is not actually the biggest problem with Saxi's silly little trolling.

Making a comparison between different countries based on "crime-rate" alone is naturally silly. "Crime rate" does not account for the type of crime and it does not account for demographics or culture or any number of factors. Did you know, for example, that the percentage of murders in Turkey is 3 times as high as that of Norway? Or that Turkey doesn't even seem to arrest drug-offenders? (whereas for Norway it's their number one offense.)

It's crazy. It's almost like Norway is an incredibly different country from Turkey.


(btw, saxi, do your totally awesome statistics explain the recidivism rates being lower than neighbouring countries?)

[BigBallinStalin]

Found it!

Crimes Per Capita, Norway: 71.9 per 1,000 people
Crimes Per Capita, Turkey: 4.11252 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Norway/Turkey/Crime

Therefore, based on the prevailing logic in this thread, Norway would see a 15x lower crime rate if they replaced their "eco-friendly residential chalets" with 10-man cells and punitive beatings.



If Norway's prison guards gang-raped prisoners the tragic shooting could have been averted. If only we'd known. If only we'd known.

Interestingly enough, despite Turkey having a lower amount of crimes per capita they have far more people in prison per capita.

Saxi, I know you're playing around, but you're failing to account for 1) number of police, 2) certainty of punishment, 3) swiftness of punishment, and 4) the police strategies employed for reducing crime. These are important variables that you're ignoring; therefore, your sophist argument needs to account for these variables before it can be viewed as credible.

Hah! That is not actually the biggest problem with Saxi's silly little trolling.

Making a comparison between different countries based on "crime-rate" alone is naturally silly. "Crime rate" does not account for the type of crime and it does not account for demographics or culture or any number of factors. Did you know, for example, that the percentage of murders in Turkey is 3 times as high as that of Norway? Or that Turkey doesn't even seem to arrest drug-offenders? (whereas for Norway it's their number one offense.)

It's crazy. It's almost like Norway is an incredibly different country from Turkey.


(btw, saxi, do your totally awesome statistics explain the recidivism rates being lower than neighbouring countries?)

You should invest in a chill pill.

[InkL0sed]

And you should invest in a butt plug.

[BigBallinStalin]

[saxitoxin]

Therefore, based on the prevailing logic in this thread, Norway would see a 15x lower crime rate if they replaced their "eco-friendly residential chalets" with 10-man cells and punitive beatings.

Interestingly enough, despite Turkey having a lower amount of crimes per capita they have far more people in prison per capita.

Hah! That is not actually the biggest problem with Saxi's silly little trolling.

Making a comparison between different countries based on "crime-rate" alone is naturally silly. "Crime rate" does not account for the type of crime and it does not account for demographics or culture or any number of factors. Did you know, for example, that the percentage of murders in Turkey is 3 times as high as that of Norway? Or that Turkey doesn't even seem to arrest drug-offenders? (whereas for Norway it's their number one offense.)

It's crazy. It's almost like Norway is an incredibly different country from Turkey.


(btw, saxi, do your totally awesome statistics explain the recidivism rates being lower than neighbouring countries?)

Fantastic!

Often have I enjoyed how the equations are all dumbly simple - matters of mere common sense - when their sum is supposed to add-up to the romanticized view of European white power culture ("A journalist who covers pop music and almost interviewed Dima Bilan once, said Norway has a low crime rate and Norwegian prisons are gentle, therefore, gentle prisons result in a low crime rate.").

However, once that same dumbly simple logic is used to note that the sequence doesn't sum, the equation suddenly becomes extremely complicated and esoteric, now frantically calling in an ever-changing kaleidoscope of shifting factors to explain the differential. Variable ABC must be discounted and Variable XYZ must be multiplied by seven and Variable LMN can only be considered if it's a full moon in October while Variable QRS is actually a positive instead of a negative and ...

This is the very essence of the irrational, anti-scientific, Colonialist mindset found west of the Danube: the answer is reached first and then whatever numbers add-up to that answer are chosen a la carte.

[PLAYER57832]

That's a low-security facility. Did you read the descriptions of the maximum-security prisons?

Yes. They more closely resemble our minimum security facilities, but not really. Some points they make seem valid. Certainly, we cannot just keep locking people up for 20-30 years, send them out and expect them to have become better people. Particularly when those locked up are young (and thus likely to be younger when released), it behooves us to make sure they have training, and just plain are "fit" for real life. Something much more than our "halfway house" system.

However, a lot of that system is based on Norway simply being a different culture with different values, truly. I do hear they are talking of extending the maximum sentence after the shooting, though.

I lived near a halfway house in College (near UCSB, in fact). It was definitely not like the first description. More than a couple committed crimes and were returned to prison. They were obviously not ready to be even half-way released.

The closest I have come to a real (open) prison, though is to see various shows on Discover, etc. I am not sure they are reasonable representations, but I cannot help but think putting several hundred people together with no walls (not even in the bathroom), toilets that don't work most of the time (in the yard), etc is not the best way to ensure people come out able to live in general society. I also cannot help but think its a waste. Chain gangs are actually not cost-effective. Some of the prison industries for clothing, etc actually compete with private business but there are ways you can get prisoners to work effectively and cost-effectively. They used to be limited to making uniforms for government agencies, but now have expanded. A quick google gave me multiple links for products you can by made by prisoners.
here are 3 state examples :
http://catalog.pia.ca.gov/store.php?t=1312541455
http://www.acicatalog.com/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.scprisonindustries.com/

A federal example:
http://www.unicor.gov/