Conquer Club

Hey Lux!

You don't have to post all draft in your first post as images
Change it to something like this
[spoiler=first post]Hi CC members/ community:

Hello everyone:

Changes made to 3rd Draft of “Gangs of TORONTO”:

1- Expanded the 4 core block areas using ‘magnifying glass’ effect.
2- Displayed all 1 way and 2 way connections of the map.
3- Devoted a larger amount of Imagery in lieu of the previously overused text legend of the 2nd Draft.
4- Changed the name of the Special Constable unit to Special Services to make it more generic, as per some concerns in CC forum.
5- Incorporated clockwise and counter clockwise connections for the Special Services Unit, in order to improve game play.
6- Changed background to create more of a gang setting.
7- Changed background content to create more of a gang setting.
8- Changed the Gang symbol to that of a gun for aesthetic reasons.
9- Purchased the “most wanted font” to enhance gang theme of map.




3nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
[bigimg]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1112/gangsoftorontod3800x800.jpg[/bigimg]

3nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" small view:
[bigimg]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/881/gangsoftorontod3600x600.jpg[/bigimg]

2nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO"
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3967/gangsoftoronto2nddraftl.jpg
Small view:
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6857/gangsoftoronto2nddrafts.jpg
First Draft:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7796/gangsoftorontolarge.jpg[/spoiler]

About the map itself, we talked via PM and i gave you my opinion....i hope to see that improvements in the next update!
You're on the right way
Have a nice day

Thenobodies80

Hi CC members/ community:

Hello everyone:

4th Draft has been updated...

Problems from the last (3rd) Draft:

1) Font not easy to read.
2) Map still cramped
3) Green dotted line hard to see in some spots
4) Use of Magnifying Glass
5) Legend of Turfs is overkill.
6) Visual attack system fine tuning.
7) Place Darker border around map, in lieu of the white border against Grey background
Solid/ Dotted lines explanation not clear enough.
9) Army circles.

Amendments made with this Fourth Draft:

1) In a last ditch effort to hopefully incorporate this “most wanted” type of graffiti font, I have increased the font size at the expense of a “gang dialogue” that used to spice up the gang theme of this map of the 3rd draft. My personal feeling is that the “most wanted” type of font used in both 3rd and 4th draft creates a more gang like atmosphere with the somewhat albeit challenging font style. I feel that once the Conquer Club player gets over the initial strain of deciphering between the letter ‘S’ and ‘T’ and other letters that it will be a pleasure to look at the gang style of writing during game play. I concede that, I could be very wrong about this point and eagerly await the forum feedback and “Foundry Map experts” opinions.
2) I increased the map playing size yet again, via cutting off the bottom 40 vertical pixels, thus creating a true 840 by 800 map. I also stretched the map about 7 percent downwards and 3 percent outwards in addition to the already increase of 40 horizontal pixels.
3) The former Green dotted lines are now black at the core and I used a light Green 1 pixel stroke, positioned on the outside, normal blending mode & opacity set at 75%.
4) The only reason I used the magnifying glass is to explain to Torontonians why their City Core ballooned about 35 percent. Magnifying glass is removed in 4th draft.
5) The legend of the 16 Turfs is gone.
6) The visual attack system is improved… TY “ thenobodies80” for identifying this area to me !
7) Darker Border was set around the white bordered map.
I’m hoping that the presence of a consensually agreed improved visual approach of this 4th draft has assisted in securing the issue of ‘making the dotted/ solid lines explanation more clear.
9) And lastly, I placed triple 8’s inside a 24 pixel circle for each territory found on the “Gangs of TORONTO” map.
10) Oh …. LOL… I pumped a few more bullets into the Grey Bricked Wall …Just because I felt it 
11) And perhaps more importantly, I have credited map maker "thenobodies80" for his humble encouragement to continue map making... CC has a very approachable member in "thenobodies80"... My only lament is being held responsible for the increased publicity that this 'VERY HUMBLE' individual is gonna get as a result of my credit to him.

Thank you to all who continue to support this project visa vie their most sincere and strong constructive criticism, which in its absence, I would not be able to progress with and assist my learning curve, in this very fun and exciting world of image editing.

4th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8699 ... 40x800.jpg

4th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" SMALL VIEW
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/686/ ... 30x600.jpg

Fellow Torontonian here. Let me know when the game is up and running. Could be interesting.

The graphics continue to improve, nice work. But I'm afraid I'm about to lift the horse's tail: how are you going to put unique identifiers on the map for all these territories? Not much space there. Do you plan to just name them "Politician A1", "Special Services B", "Gang C5", "Police Dept D2"and so on?

WElRDLY wrote:Fellow Torontonian here. Let me know when the game is up and running. Could be interesting.

Hello "WElRDLY" :

Nice to make your acquaintance here at Conquer Club- and best of luck to your game that we are in on...

Well ... I have alot of work to do yet on this map- and time will tell if it can get off the ground or go back to the "Drawing Board" from whence it came...

Thanks for dropping by and saying hello and offering your interest in this map...sincerely thank you very much...

If this map gets considered for beta, I will let you know forthwith !!!

Take care and have a great day - enjoy your summer !!!

luxCRUSADER

ender516 wrote:The graphics continue to improve, nice work. But I'm afraid I'm about to lift the horse's tail: how are you going to put unique identifiers on the map for all these territories? Not much space there. Do you plan to just name them "Politician A1", "Special Services B", "Gang C5", "Police Dept D2"and so on?

Hello again "ender516":

Just noticed you're from the Waterloo area. I have friends that work there... nice Region to raise a family !

About "lifting the horse's tail"... don't worry ....anytime... your most brutal constructive criticism is MOST welcome... how else am I to improve... if I don't learn from an oversight or lack of knowledge.

Secondly, regarding your very valid and good question ("...Do you plan to just name them "Politician A1", "Special Services B", "Gang C5", "Police Dept D2"and so on?...), concerning the name of the territories, I will answer that here:

Just as in the " Siege ! " Map, where the respective map-maker assigned only plot numbers correlating to the respective field ie Plains or Forest etc., I hope to follow this similar style for various reasons; the most obvious being the one you mentioned and impetus for your query here. In summary, I plan to simply leave the names as is- but since reading your post, I now lean to adding the respective 'Block Letter' in front of the existing prefix you now see on the map. For example, in Block A you see the Police Department, which I have assigned the simply abbreviation of P1- the 'P' standing for Police, and the '1' representing the first of two 'TURFS' in the respective Block. I now will likely abbreviate the same Police Department example, with " AP1". But I could equally leave it as is simply following the Golden Rule: 'The less clutter on the game map, the better'. I hope this answers your question.

On this note, I have to submit that I am still hoping to get ride of the green and gold 2 way attack routes displayed on the map, in lieu of a statement which can address the same point... I'll have to see- as, conversely, I am being told from friends, that it is kind of cool to simply look at the politician and count the attack routes out of the figure to know from just a glance, how many connections there are for strategic purposes.

Thanks again "ender516" for your comments and continued support to see this map get its' "hopeful clearance"

Take care and have a great summer !
luxCRUSADER

hey, keep up the good work, its looking really good. i've got some suggestions though:

1) there are way too many dotted lines in this map. the best way to resolve this would be to just say all ___ attack each other, and since they have the same symbols and colored glow, then we'll know that. this saves space in the legend, allowing for more space for the map, which is still somewhat of an issue for me, although the loss of the dots will greatly help

2) i feel as though the map is too "free for all" if you know what i mean. since you currently having all politicians attacking each other, all cops attacking each other, and all gangs attacking each other, you might need to think of something to segregate the blocks a little more. for example, a da's office or a gang house would work, although at this point i would feel like thats taking too much from edbeards operation drug war map... maybe have the gangs in each block be rival gangs to limit their movement, that would really help in my opinion

3) what is the purpose of having turfs and blocks? there seems to be no bonus for any given turf, so if you're not using it, might as well lose it. again, this saves some space in the legend.

4) bonuses: at this point, i'm unsure about whether there are too many or too few bonuses. for example, block bonuses might enhance gameplay, but there are already 4 other bonuses... maybe limit those, for example, instead of saying all politicians get a bonus, all ss get a bonus, and all pd get a bonus in any given block, how about hold 1 politician, 1 ss, and 1 pd for a bonus of +2 and then on top of that have the gang bonuses, and then an overall block/turf bonus. the reason i like this is that people are more familiar with a bonus structure based on holding a whole region.

otherwise, keep up the good work, its looking better every time

Wow Lux, major improvments each draft buddy. The text is much better this time and I am certainly looking forward to giving it a try when we can. Keep up the good work

whitestazn88 wrote:hey, keep up the good work, its looking really good. i've got some suggestions though:

1) there are way too many dotted lines in this map. the best way to resolve this would be to just say all ___ attack each other, and since they have the same symbols and colored glow, then we'll know that. this saves space in the legend, allowing for more space for the map, which is still somewhat of an issue for me, although the loss of the dots will greatly help

2) i feel as though the map is too "free for all" if you know what i mean. since you currently having all politicians attacking each other, all cops attacking each other, and all gangs attacking each other, you might need to think of something to segregate the blocks a little more. for example, a da's office or a gang house would work, although at this point i would feel like thats taking too much from edbeards operation drug war map... maybe have the gangs in each block be rival gangs to limit their movement, that would really help in my opinion

3) what is the purpose of having turfs and blocks? there seems to be no bonus for any given turf, so if you're not using it, might as well lose it. again, this saves some space in the legend.

4) bonuses: at this point, i'm unsure about whether there are too many or too few bonuses. for example, block bonuses might enhance gameplay, but there are already 4 other bonuses... maybe limit those, for example, instead of saying all politicians get a bonus, all ss get a bonus, and all pd get a bonus in any given block, how about hold 1 politician, 1 ss, and 1 pd for a bonus of +2 and then on top of that have the gang bonuses, and then an overall block/turf bonus. the reason i like this is that people are more familiar with a bonus structure based on holding a whole region.

otherwise, keep up the good work, its looking better every time

otherwise, keep up the good work, its looking better every time

Once again "whitestazn88" thx for stopping by and dropping your interest in this map. I'll respond to your 4 points...

1) "there are way too many dotted lines in this map...":
I agree with you. In fact In the post just before you, I self admitted this concern ... actually at first (3rd Draft) I tried to lower the opacity to make it less noticeable, but then concerns popped up that the lines were not legible enough- so in this draft, I increased the opacity and added a "questionably bright stroke"... so I will have to really work hard on this point. Trust me, and at the risk of sounding presumptuous... I will solve this...

2) On this point, the fact of the map is that every unit can ONLY attack each other if connected ADJACENTLY... I knew that by taking out some of the lines from the last draft, that this was going to the inferred opinion, with regards to attack route... So first of all, I just wanna say: don't worry, the connections are not "free for all"; Politicians can only attack adjacent Politicians and likewise with the Special Services unit- it too can only attack adjacent units. This last part was changed at the 3rd draft- after I found in game trials- that things were too loose. So the lesson for me here is to make a definitive statement confirming the adjacent properties of attacking units. Thx for raising this point "whitestazn88". Since this was not a concern for you from the 3rd draft, I assume, that in the abscene of certain lines of information (and I know which ones they are), I will have to bring these lines back and lower the font sizes EVERY SO SLIGHTLY ... so as to balance the two parts in harmony...

3) My response to your point #2 helps explain this 3rd concern of yours...
but the turfs serve an aesthetic value for the "rock-paper-scissors" concept being employed between the "politician-cops-gangs"...

4) My response to your point #2, helps explain this 4th concern of yours....
On this fourth point, it is really a discussion to be had once- and only if- this map is able to get past the first stage of progression. So your very good and valid idea here is one shared by me and others... I have to wait and see whether this map is good enough to pass the draft stage first- thats my guess right now. But for whatever it is worth, I continue to play this game and it really works well.

whitestazn88 wrote: "....otherwise, keep up the good work, its looking better every time"

....sincerely... thank you ...

swm3047 wrote:Wow Lux, major improvments each draft buddy. The text is much better this time and I am certainly looking forward to giving it a try when we can. Keep up the good work

thx "swm3047"...

I'm glad the text is more legible; although I think I went overboard with the size... its easy to lose sight of the forest when you stare at one tree all the time... ...especially if you end up sinking your forehead into that same tree at the end of a long night trying to solve a certain task.... Not so funny, the morning after when the wife asks you why ya face looks like a punched-up pizza and how come there are double-chins under ya eyes ?

thx again "swm3047"

hey lux,

Haven't stopped by in a while so i wanted to check on your progress. I'll echo the sentiments of others who've said that the map is still too busy - if you can develop this map to have traditional territories with borders it will be much easier to work out attack routes and keep things straight.

A word about type face: some fonts are primarily decorative and should be used sparingly and to attract the viewer's eye. Other fonts are functional and should be used for bodies of text. By using the graffiti font throughout you both give the font less impact by overloading the viewer's eye and you make the text nearly impossible to read. Use the graffiti in one or two places on the image only, and on the rest of the image give us something less busy.

Finally, the theme (which I have mentioned before). I think I probably speak for many CC users when I say that Gangs of Toronto is not a phrase that immediately strikes fear into people's hearts, so it will be up toyou to sell us on this theme, and to do so you'll need to give us more than pistolas and spray paint. Why Toronto? What's the gang scene like? And what about this map makes me think I'm in Toronto and not Ottawa, or Winnipeg? Can you include any features on your map that are Toronto-specific, other than the shape (which most of us aren't going to be aware of)?

oaktown wrote:hey lux,

Haven't stopped by in a while so i wanted to check on your progress. I'll echo the sentiments of others who've said that the map is still too busy - if you can develop this map to have traditional territories with borders it will be much easier to work out attack routes and keep things straight.

....On this point...ahhhh..... .... hmmm.... I'm gonna have to do some serious thinking .... cuz, just yesterday... my own brother, who is studying for his computer exams... well... said the same thing ... straight up !... he said: ....bro-its too busy !... so hearing the words from someone of your level of experience....hmm...well ...like I said: I got alot of thinking to do... ... hmmm some like it, tell me its great- but at the same volume some will say its too loud- and I don't think I helped my case with those green and gold connection points- or I'll have to find an ARTISTIC way of making the connections less noticeable, like the NYC map did with the subway lines. I think I'll lose the green connections like I have alluded to in two most prior posts, but I will keep the gold one which I think ??? everyone agrees is less 'painful' to the eyes.

oaktown wrote:A word about type face: some fonts are primarily decorative and should be used sparingly and to attract the viewer's eye. Other fonts are functional and should be used for bodies of text. By using the graffiti font throughout you both give the font less impact by overloading the viewer's eye and you make the text nearly impossible to read. Use the graffiti in one or two places on the image only, and on the rest of the image give us something less busy.

... I absolutely feel the same way !!! ... this is also something I just spoke of in my last post reply to this one... thx for echoing the sentiment... cuz it means a hell-of-alot more to hear it from someone of your qualifications than to hear the voice in my head... ... ...This is something that WILL change in the next draft...

oaktown wrote:Finally, the theme (which I have mentioned before). I think I probably speak for many CC users when I say that Gangs of Toronto is not a phrase that immediately strikes fear into people's hearts, so it will be up toyou to sell us on this theme, and to do so you'll need to give us more than pistolas and spray paint. Why Toronto? What's the gang scene like? And what about this map makes me think I'm in Toronto and not Ottawa, or Winnipeg? Can you include any features on your map that are Toronto-specific, other than the shape (which most of us aren't going to be aware of)?

....yes !!! ... you are right on this one also... I have to sit here and say to myself .... wow... time out !!!... I will have to merge more of the second draft with some of the third and some of the fourth... I WILL be staring at these three drafts for some time in order to successfully address these very good points you have just made !!! Thank you so very very much for offering me these comments.

Oaktown...sincerely... thank you for your comments here...

luxCRUSADER

luxCRUSADER wrote:In summary, I plan to simply leave the names as is- but since reading your post, I now lean to adding the respective 'Block Letter' in front of the existing prefix you now see on the map. For example, in Block A you see the Police Department, which I have assigned the simply abbreviation of P1- the 'P' standing for Police, and the '1' representing the first of two 'TURFS' in the respective Block. I now will likely abbreviate the same Police Department example, with " AP1". But I could equally leave it as is simply following the Golden Rule: 'The less clutter on the game map, the better'. I hope this answers your question.

Well, I tend to agree with your latter position, because I don't think the map can afford all those prefix letters. I was mostly thinking of the designation in the dropdown menus. But your comment does point out how easily this could get confusing, because on your map, P1 is not a police department, it's a politician. PD1 is a police department. You might want to fall back to the term "Division" which the Toronto Police Service uses for its geographical partitions of the city. Your turfs obviously are roughly based on them, with 51 and 52 Divisions merged. On the plus side, calling them "Divisions" gives a locally accurate flavour to the map; on the minus side, the actual numbers used are a little weird, especially if you are not familiar with the old municipal boundaries. Also, the pairing of Divisions within your Blocks would not be obvious from the numbers, either.
A different way to get away from P vs PD would be to change the term Politician to "Councillor" (but C might look like G for Gang) or "Alderman" (but that term is no longer acceptable in Toronto the Gender Neutral; here in CC, who knows?).

oaktown wrote:Finally, the theme (which I have mentioned before). I think I probably speak for many CC users when I say that Gangs of Toronto is not a phrase that immediately strikes fear into people's hearts, so it will be up toyou to sell us on this theme, and to do so you'll need to give us more than pistolas and spray paint. Why Toronto? What's the gang scene like? And what about this map makes me think I'm in Toronto and not Ottawa, or Winnipeg? Can you include any features on your map that are Toronto-specific, other than the shape (which most of us aren't going to be aware of)?

i think this is a very important
why
1.as all major cities have gangs and it could be anywhere and Toronto might be bad but theres worst
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story ... cides.html
and we are well on are way this year as i type theres gunshots
but i don`t want a map the world plays on to think oh Winnipeg u get murdered there
2.gangs kill each other not cops, door to door salesmen, and ss they get in the way
as your gameplay is very neat and interesting i think theres a lot better ways to portray gangs and fighting for there turf


i`m sorry if i am coming off harsh
thats not my point
My point is think outside the box which is currently Toronto
and maybe you will create your own gangland
and you may find it even more rewarding

and please tone the amount of colours this causes much more clutter then you may see

First of all "Danyael": I wanna say I ABSOLUTELY love what you have done with your map !!! I can't wait to play on it

Danyael wrote:1.as all major cities have gangs and it could be anywhere and Toronto might be bad but theres worst
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story ... cides.html
and we are well on are way this year as i type theres gunshots

... In terms of Gang Violence, there are definitely worse areas in the world to choose from. In no way am I saying Toronto is the worst or the second worse... I am simply showing a map of Toronto, choosing a unique map theme incorporating the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" concept, never used before in Risk Play, on a map, which I choose to be Toronto, which by the way has not been represented here at Conquer Club.

Of the 40 areas on my map of Toronto, I choose 40 communities which receive alot of criminal attention in this city of Toronto- that's Toronto's reality. But MUCH more importantly, I simply wanna have fun via the "rock-paper-scissors" concept visa vie the "Politician-Cop-Gang" attack system. Plain and simple. Combat or strategy-based video games often feature RPS ("rock-paper-scissors")-like cycles in their characters' or units' effectiveness against others. These often attempt to emulate cycles in real-world combat. And I did this for the player to either choose to play as the "good guy" and win over his city of Toronto or "bad guy" and make it a criminal capital. Each style of play is up to the individual player.

In my latest draft, I have drifted too far to the left with far too much emphasis on Gang; and for that, please accept my apology as a result of my inexperience in map preparation. I have only started image editing for the past approximate 6 weeks... In my last post prior to this one, I have stated that I concede that I have to blend the 2nd, 3rd and 4th drafts together, as each espouse their own advantages.

Danyael wrote: but i don`t want a map the world plays on to think oh Winnipeg u get murdered there

... well that's why you have to win the game as a "honest good cop" ...

First of all, Toronto has a very successful Police Department which has the upper hand on Gangs, as I gave them the one way attack against the Gangs, so don't worry about your friends or other Manitobians concerned about coming to Toronto and thinking that there is no Police to take a bite out of crime...and besides ... "win the game" and tell everyone that you just purge the city of all its crime... and while you are at it... tell them to come back to your city and try to take it over while you sit as Chief of Police, making sure the Politicians are squeaky clean and Police working the beat instead of being paid off by the Criminal element...Everyone will remember your victory as proof that the city is a good city; and not one, that is Gang Plagued- So my friend, play the game and prove the naysayers wrong about their preconceived idea that the city is Gang owned... In fact in Toronto... our Gang Enforcement Unit (aka TAVIS) has successfully kept the Gangs at bay- not gone- but "at bay" ...and like your statistical link shows: "Toronto is a great city to live in"... which playing on this map, as honest good cop... will show

Danyael wrote:2.gangs kill each other not cops, door to door salesmen, and ss they get in the way
as your gameplay is very neat and interesting i think theres a lot better ways to portray gangs and fighting for there turf

...again, I'm not trying to portray the Gangs fighting for their turf, as much as I am trying to let the individual player choose for themselves whether they wish to make Toronto the the Good, the Bad or the Ugly

Danyael wrote:i`m sorry if i am coming off harsh
thats not my point

... No offense taken and I hope you can feel the same way

Danyael wrote:My point is think outside the box which is currently Toronto
and maybe you will create your own gangland
and you may find it even more rewarding

I agree with you ... and have already said this in previous posts Ie:
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Postby luxCRUSADER on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:09 pm
swm3047 wrote:Wow Lux, major improvments each draft buddy. The text is much better this time and I am certainly looking forward to giving it a try when we can. Keep up the good work
thx "swm3047"...

I'm glad the text is more legible; although I think I went overboard with the size... its easy to lose sight of the forest when you stare at one tree all the time... ...especially if you end up sinking your forehead into that same tree at the end of a long night trying to solve a certain task.... Not so funny, the morning after when the wife asks you why ya face looks like a punched-up pizza and how come there are double-chins under ya eyes ?

thx again "swm3047"
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Danyael wrote:and please tone the amount of colours this causes much more clutter then you may see

As I have said in my last three posts, I have gone overboard with the size of the fonts, which have colors which you and everyone are gonna see loud and clear... I know that I screwed up on this part on this 4th draft... ....'m new to graphics and on this draft I was MOSTLY and wrongly concerned with getting the font legibly seen...not having proper foresight to know that I lost other elements that have brought many JUSTIFIED negative criticisms out this time around.

I will resolve these issues... Just as I proved that I can do graphics decently well. Hopefully with experience, I will learn and refine this art as high as I can push it...time will tell...

In the end, Conquer Club has all the stats in front of them, to know whether a linear map as this one will fly or not, and whether the game play is unique enough to solicit the right attention. I recognize that Conquer Club is not my property - thank God for that- cuz I aint no businessman So if this map and its idea flies: GREAT ! If it doesn't: OH well... I had a blast trying ... but more importantly, I had the experience of going through this to prepare myself for the real MEDIEVAL (non-linear) project I have cooking on the back burner. Life goes on ... ... I ain't luxCRUSADER (gamename) for nothing, without trying to do a MEDIEVAL map, which has not been done in the unique theme, which I am going to introduce in the next several months...but I gotta practice and learn several additional graphic techniques first.

Take care Danyael...and enjoy your summer !!!
luxCRUSADER

Hey lux.

some quick things....

Oaktown gave you some quick suggestions about the use of text. About this, i'm happy and honoured you decided to thank me putting the name on the map , but you honestly use that space for the map itself. People said you that it's too busy, you need space
Anyway, thank you
I think you have to set a lower number of territories, some gangs could be taken off...
The problem with assault lines is their dotted nature. And the green glow pop up it more...
I think you could find another way to explain attack routes with a less invasive layout
Then you have another time the problem of the legend to explain the legend...
It's not wrong give explanations, but think your map as a player, what do you really need to know?
What is given to you by the graphic, what by the text?

Finally try to think the legend as a different part of the map...you can do an easier legend with a more readeable and smalll text, then you can add to the map all the features to increase the gang theme. Features can involve the legend too in a second time.

About attack system you can do something like this:



Looking forward your next update!

Have a nice day

thenobodies80

Just to give you some encouragement, lux, I like your graphical depiction of attacks in one turf better than thenobodies80's chart: it makes the rock-paper-scissors scheme more obvious. But I would like to suggest a few adjustments that might make it even more clear. First, arrange the three example gangs in an equilateral triangle so it is easy to see the symmetry of the attacks between them, and use plain solid black double headed arrows to show the two-way attacks between them. Then, use solid double headed arrows to show the two-way attacks between gangs and special services. If you feel the need to keep the colour scheme, use a gold arrowhead pointing from the special services to the gangs and a black arrowhead from the gangs to the special services, making the shared shaft two-tone. I would try drawing this up, but I am not very experienced yet with Photoshop or GIMP and I just remembered that the fact that I had Canada Day off today doesn't mean I don't have to go to work tomorrow. This is NOT a weekend, repeat, NOT a weekend. And so to bed.

ender516 wrote:Just to give you some encouragement, lux,

THANKS SOOO much for your kind and thoughtful encouragement... it means alot to me

ender516 wrote:... I like your graphical depiction of attacks in one turf better than thenobodies80's chart: it makes the rock-paper-scissors scheme more obvious...

... I am equally obliged to mapmaker, 'thenobodies80' for his unparalleled devotion to the map foundry process, as no one appears to commit as impartially as he does to such a wide field of various mapmakers and their designs- he always offers the most PRAGMATIC solutions, and gives the respective mapmakers projects the respect that most of them deserve... it speaks volumes about his commitment... just my humble opinion here... BUT, as far as the legend goes, I have made SUBSTANTIAL improvements in text and diagram clarity upon the circular legend that I invoked, that, I do not plan- at this point- to change that...thx again ender516 for your feedback on this !

ender516 wrote:But I would like to suggest a few adjustments that might make it even more clear. First, arrange the three example gangs in an equilateral triangle so it is easy to see the symmetry of the attacks between them, and use plain solid black double headed arrows to show the two-way attacks between them. Then, use solid double headed arrows to show the two-way attacks between gangs and special services. If you feel the need to keep the colour scheme, use a gold arrowhead pointing from the special services to the gangs and a black arrowhead from the gangs to the special services, making the shared shaft two-tone. I would try drawing this up, but I am not very experienced yet with Photoshop or GIMP and I just remembered that the fact that I had Canada Day off today doesn't mean I don't have to go to work tomorrow. This is NOT a weekend, repeat, NOT a weekend. And so to bed.

WOW !!! you are good man ... unconditional offer for help ... friends don't get better that m8 !!! I will not forget your gesture !!!
Regarding the aesthetic change you recommend... I am going to see if the ENHANCED clarity I made to the 5th draft is substantial enough to make this alteration unnecessary ... time will tell on this part...
again thank you so much for this recommendation...

Oh if you do decide to get Photoshop adobe CS3, which can be downloaded for a really good price (about 170 $ us), I can also direct you to a link that sells video tutorials, which has "turbo blasted" my learning curve (plus books) just PM for these links if and when you get the time to attack this endeavor

Later
luxCRUSADER

P.S. DRAFT 5 will be out today or tomorrow ....

Hi CC members/ community:
Hello everyone:

5th Draft has been updated...

Map:
Gang Crusades of TORONTO

Map Game Play Requirements:
1) Know how to play and use the "rock-paper-scissors" concept.
2) Know how to follow dotted line connections.
3) Read Game play mechanics shown on map proper area.

***Failure to know any part of these 3 requirements will result in the viewer unable to play this map... or MAJORITY OF game players for that matter****...


Purpose of Map:
!) Highlight the success that Canada's Largest City has had on its Gang Warfare ! (Map of Toronto/6 LARGE SCALED Gang Projects in JUST 5 YEAR SPAN !!!! Google search this urself to learn more ! )
2) Empower the Conquer Club player to play as Gangstar or Cop. (rock-paper-scissors)
3) Simply have fun- And you will, cuz:
....i) FIRSTLY...this map uses, arguably one of the most popular historical combat themes of Good Boys against Bad Boys, while set in this map play for the first time ever, using the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" Cycle, which all Combat or strategy-based video games often do; I mean they feature RPS ("rock-paper-scissors")-like cycles in their characters' or units' effectiveness against others. These often attempt to emulate cycles in real-world combat. And I did this for the player to either choose to play as the "good guy" and win over his city of Toronto or "bad guy" and make it a criminal capital. Each style of play is up to the individual player.
....ii) SECONDLY....just like in the Peloponnesian Map where everyone starts with a sectio, I plan to do that here; whereby, everyone will start with a Division, within their Zone, before spreading out to the same colored Division of respective Zone to hopefully collect the full 10 bonus armies before your neighbor does. Then once in this position- AS YOU SIT BEHIND YOUR "3 CHOKE POINTS" (which everyone will have in each Zone), you'll have to decide-just like in Peloponnesian War, whether to take out the competition next to you or sit and stack waiting until a bloodbath between your neighbors is completed; BUT THE ADDED DIFFERENCE in this game play is that NOW you'll be able to ADDITIONALLY decide whether (with enough reserves & "RISK" ) to take a chance and plan for a Gang raid visa vie SECURELY CONTROLLING any part or all of the GANG PROJECTS for a whopping additional 21 armies.

As long as interest remains in keeping this map and its "semi-complex" structure alive, I will continue- in good faith- to draft as much as possible the necessary components in order to meet the foundry standards, pursuant to Conquer Club standards and agreements.
... But if the statistics, economics or other privy criteria governing map selection concludes that this "semi-complex/ linear/ non-traditional" map is not suitable and in the best interests of the common gamer at Conquer Club, then could the "powers to be" kindly let me know asap at their first available moment, that this map as it is structured is not suitable. I respectfully ask this so that I may advance my plans for this map into another forum for personal entertainment purposes. Thanks in advance...

Map Cartographer:
luxCRUSADER

Map Idea:
luxCRUSADER

Map Specifics:
Number of Continents: 8 + 6 single region continents (Gang Projects)
Number of Territories: 78
-Gangs: 32
-Police Departments: 16
-Politicians: 16
-Special Services: 8
-Gang Projects: 6
Neutral Start Points: TBA

Gimmicks:
1) One Way Attacks.
2) 3 dimensional attacking system ! via complete use of "ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS" concept. (first time ever in risk play)... As far as I know ...
3) Balanced '3- Point' choke system for EACH of the 8 Continents on the Map, as a result of the 3 dimensional attack system.


Problems from the last (4th) Draft:

1) Font too loud.
2) assault lines is their dotted nature
3) From Oaktown, claiming that the title: "Gangs of TORONTO" conjures image of Gang warfare as it compares to the more problematic centers of Gang Plagued areas, like Los Angeles, Chicago or New York. Thus Selling this specific theme was imperative.

Changes Made in the 5th draft:
1) Title change to better "drive home" the theme of Toronto's success on Gangs and how the Conquer Club player can play as both 'Gangstar or Cop'; thus avoiding the need to sell a theme this author did not wish to make claim to.
2) Added 6 additional territories to compliment the theme of Toronto' recent and on-going Crusade on Gangs.
3) Removed 8 'Gang Units' from Map area to make it more spacious
3) Replaced Graffiti font of drafts 3 and 4 with another style set a much lower size.
4) Lowered opacity of all army circles; removed them completely on Police Divisions.
5) Added pleasing (hopefully pleasing) graphical images of Toronto, blending them into the brick walled background, helping to identify City of Toronto better.
6) Perhaps arguably, and finally: "nailed down" the explanations for ALL attacking systems on the map.
7) toned down the graphs of the Politicians attack route.
Changed the terms of Block to Zone and Turf to Division.
9) Added Zone Letters to Each Territory on the map.

5th Draft Concerns:
1) Should I do away completely with the "white Graffiti fonts used to explain game mechanics ?
2) Has the Green Politician Lines finally been found appealing ?
3)

5th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
[bigimg]http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6194/gangcrusadesoftoronto5a.jpg[/bigimg]

5th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" SMALL VIEW
[bigimg]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6194/gangcrusadesoftoronto5a.jpg[/bigimg]


Thank you to all who continue to support this project visa vie their most sincere and strong constructive criticism, which in its absence, I would not be able to progress with and assist my learning curve, in this very fun and exciting world of image editing.


L8R
luxCRUSADER

Wow, a lot of good work has gone into this draft. The map is still very dense with text. Not necessarily bad, just different from most maps. Probably something you will have to continue to defend.

Typo: "Kyrptic" should be "Kryptic".

The army circles look better (I was going to say something, but you caught it without me.)

So Police Divisions attack only gangs in their map Division and are attacked only by the Politician in their map Division? That seems to be the conclusion I should draw from the description of attacks, but I just want to be sure.

ender516 wrote:Wow, a lot of good work has gone into this draft. ...

thx a million 'ender516' ... I have Bob Marley's song: "Bad boys - Bad Boys" to thank for the hard work... I kept repeating that song until my feet couldn't pound the hardwood floor my "Risk Chair" rests on ! ... I'm still singing that song ... watcha gonna do when they come for you ? !!!

ender516 wrote:The map is still very dense with text. Not necessarily bad, just different from most maps. Probably something you will have to continue to defend.

YEP !!!... It's funny- I just posted the new draft hours ago and I feel it !!! Unless I get strong opposition, I WILL be changing the white colored grafitti text to plain text, without graffiti effects. arial etc..

ender516 wrote:...Typo: "Kyrptic" should be "Kryptic"...

...I think when I typed that word, I was dancing out of my "Risk Chair"... still listening to Bob Marley's "Bad Boy" song...Thanks for pointing this out to me... Frankly, I'm sure I would not have caught it.

ender516 wrote:...The army circles look better (I was going to say something, but you caught it without me.)...

Actually, the credit for this goes to: none other, than: "thenobodies80",who pointed it out to me from the 2nd draft, but all I did was go another 20 opacity points down. Makes a big difference...

ender516 wrote: ...So Police Divisions attack only gangs in their map Division and are attacked only by the Politician in their map Division? That seems to be the conclusion I should draw from the description of attacks, but I just want to be sure.

This is what took the most time, I think... I kept talking to myself ... ..."like that's something new"...and I just went over and over the possible different misunderstandings that could occur... Its the inclusion of the statement whereby: "All white divisional borders are impassable ..."; so.. YEP ! you got it right ! the "rock-paper-scissors" occurs inside the division. In order for the gang to spread its evil, it must have control of the special services unit and politician- both of which are the 'zone choke points'; and their are 3 in ALL 8 zones. How easy can that be ? The challenge now for the hard core player who has secured one zone... will be when to start investing in the Gang Crusading Projects, which collectively will earn a NICE 21 points... Imagine dropping that on your Special Forces as they start their " Gang Sweep" into the neighboring zones to wipe out the 'Gangs' or 'Spread evil' ... It will be fun ! I think the days of the "turtling stacker" might be over... (until they add small 'turn-by-turn' percentage increases to continental bonuses)

On the 1 way attacking system, the comforting thing was that my 8 year old son and his friends all understood ... mainly because they all play "rock-paper-scissors" so I said "politician-police-gang" ... and then a crescendo of: " ahhhhh's" filled the room... ... so it was then that I realized that hey: its not so hard !

thx again ender516 !!! ... sincerely... thanks alot for your constructive critique and feedback... I will gladly help you with anything you need !

Take care and enjoy your summer !

L8R
luxCRUSADER

nice update, although i still have a few problems.

-i'm not a big fan of the whole "the good the bad or the ugly" and "watcha gonna do when they come 4 u" lines in the first story, otherwise its perfect.
- re-name the ss units to ssa, ssb, etc so that there isn't a territory named ass
- you don't need to explain that the ss and politicians are choke points. instead i would just say, white lines are impassable, and can only be passed via ss or politicians... it will save you some space
- i don't think the divisions are needed, you can just use 8 zones in my opinion
- can the projects attack anything else? i dunno if that bonus works right now... but it was a great idea to add them in

thats all for now i think... i'll get back to this later.

again, great work, keep at it, i'm happy with how this is progressing

whitestazn88 wrote:nice update, although i still have a few problems.

-i'm not a big fan of the whole "the good the bad or the ugly" and "watcha gonna do when they come 4 u" lines in the first story,...

I hope its not because you don't like Bob Marley ? ... Just joking.... .... hmm... first one to say this- but because you are very knowledgeable "critique(R)" and I notice that you are very devoted to the map foundry process...so... I am listening to ya... and gonna think about this long and hard, almost as hard as peeling me eyes off your avatar ... ah...emm...

whitestazn88 wrote:... otherwise its perfect...

...ah...still talking about the avatar ?..... ....ok ...seriously- ah YEP ! ...I would like to think the map is ( getting close to ) perfect... otherwise why aren't more pro's coming out here to say: lux !! ... its great !!!! ...But I'm thinking that they feel that:

gimil wrote:From what I can see so far I don't believe you have the graphics ability to take a map through to quenching. Your first and foremost priority should be to learning and familiarizing yourself with your software...

... thank God, map-maker "thenobodies80" stepped in and said: "give it a try" !!! God Bless you "thenobodies80" !

whitestazn88 wrote:- re-name the ss units to ssa, ssb, etc so that there isn't a territory named ass...

Ya ... I agree ... its not a good thing to have my 'ass' on the map... I mean the terminology of 'ass' on the map... ... Kinda distracting ...
Actually, I plan to keep only the number on each character's unit. Like this ...

whitestazn88 wrote:- you don't need to explain that the ss and politicians are choke points. instead i would just say, white lines are impassable, and can only be passed via ss or politicians... it will save you some space...

I did this to get players who are visually terrified of 'complex maps' to grasp-ARGUABLY- the most important concept of a game: ... "CHOKE POINTS"... once the player sees that there are ONLY 3 choke points per zone... and then further glances to see how each of the choke points are connected to the other choke points... this game lives up to the billing that I AM GONNA CLAIM: that this map: "GANG CRUSADES OF TORONTO" IS THE SIMPLEST MAP TO PLAY ON IN THE CATEGORY OF COMPLEX MAPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Then add to this the fact: that, this map uses, perhaps one of the most recognizable theme of Cop versus Gang- it's a theme recycled in every major movie coming outta Hollywood in one way or another !!!

Thats what I am banking this production on ! With all due respect to the other complex maps here- WHICH I CONTINUE TO PLAY ON CUZ THEY ARE GREAT !!!!!! but the sad reality is: people don't care or wanna care and quite frankly should care about the war in Iraq or the POW's hardships in Thailand- its a sad and very disappointing reality. Hollywood rubs in the theme of Justice and an arch enemy all the time, with the everyday experience we all face daily, whether we realize it or not. I mean a drug deal goes on right in front of us every moment- we just didn't see the "slight of hand" or "the high-five" etc. So this theme will resonate in alot of players here. That same player only has to look beyond the non-traditional connections to grasp the game play mechanics, WHICH ONCE THAT PLAYER DOES ... I believe will come back to play and another game and try to control the city !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

whitestazn88 wrote:- i don't think the divisions are needed, you can just use 8 zones in my opinion...

...hmm... I do see your point.... but here it is a case of identifying my map of Toronto on the actual Police Divisional Boundaries in the City of Toronto. And perhaps more importantly, the divisions are what gives the "ALMOST PERFECT" ... almost perfect... symmetrical play between 8 players in a game. That is to say: every zone gets 9 territories !!!!!!!!!!!! Every zone gets 3 choke points !!!!!!!!!!! Every zone gets an almost equal chance of winning !!!!!!! I say almost cuz in some divisions some choke points have "extra connections". I AM PROUD OF WHAT I HAVE ACCOMPLISHED HERE with the map idea ! And as I said above, it is the simplest COMPLEX map to play on !!!!! I wish to be challenged on this point by someone... bring it on !!!! If proven wrong I will be the first to apologize and will pay your premium membership when it comes due for renewal... Just in case, we have lawyers in da house, I will only pay the first person to prove me wrong ... otherwise my wife ... will kill me

whitestazn88 wrote:- can the projects attack anything else? i dunno if that bonus works right now... but it was a great idea to add them in ...

...hmmm....the map should answer your question... and I am not trying to be coy (sarcastic) with you but on the map there are one way RED-LINED ARROWS going from one GANG PROJECT TO THE NEXT, with a statement underneath saying that the first Gang Project is can be one way attacked by any Police Division.... does this help ? Or did you mean, will I have the Gang Bonuses attack into the map proper ? And on this note, I will say, I thought about it as certain projects targeted different areas of the map. But, in short, I decided to rest on the simplest application of the message.... Imagine that ... I actually thought of a simple application ...

whitestazn88 wrote:...thats all for now i think... i'll get back to this later....

You and your avatar are most welcome !

whitestazn88 wrote:...again, great work, keep at it, i'm happy with how this is progressing

AMDG ! and I also wish to thank "THENOBODIES80" cuz of his PRAGMATIC advise, this map WOULD NOT BE HERE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


L8R ...
luxCRUSADER

alright, well now i understand the divisions, so that makes a lot more sense. as for the projects, i just wanted to know if the last one, project fusion, can go anywhere else, or is it a dead end? i just figured that maybe it will end up going out and attacking something from there

whitestazn88 wrote:alright, well now i understand the divisions, so that makes a lot more sense. as for the projects, i just wanted to know if the last one, project fusion, can go anywhere else, or is it a dead end? i just figured that maybe it will end up going out and attacking something from there

Helloooo 'whitestanz88' ! ...I'm looking at your .... question.... really I am ...

....ahhhh.....ahhhh......what was the question ?

....oh ya... ohh...OHHH....

The last project is a dead end ... but I need to play this out on my lux delux game engine to see if it will work in a balanced way to have it hit the map area in some way ... to be honest with, I think I will be changing this... but I need to experiment with this first.

I hope this answers your question.... but really I hope it doesn't so you and your avatar can come....back ... again I promise to remember the question this time

L8R
lusCRUSADER