Are English people European?

[saxitoxin]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

[Symmetry]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

The definitive answer is maybe.

[Phatscotty]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

I just told someone from England that they were in Europe.

The answer is yes

[saxitoxin]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

I just told someone from England that they were in Europe.

The answer is yes

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe

[Phatscotty]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

I just told someone from England that they were in Europe.

The answer is yes

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe

I don't consider them Europeans. They are special

[saxitoxin]

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe, I am asking if you believe the English are a European culture in the traditional sense of that word. And I'm asking about the English only, not the Scottish, Welsh, et. al.

I haven't enjoyed the last 20 years of indoctrination by the EU's cultural unity commissioners so am still of the older mindset that they are not, nor can ever be due to the fundamental cultural dissimilarity of their experience which is of a more course, utilitarian tradition (which I don't say pejoratively, only matter-of-factly).

I just told someone from England that they were in Europe.

The answer is yes

I'm not asking if England is geographically located in Europe

I don't consider them Europeans. They are special

Stop flip-flopping, Scott.

Scott + Kerry = Scary

[Tupence]

Most English people refer to Europeans as if they are of a different culture. Otherwise, why would an English breakfast be different from a Continental one?

[saxitoxin]

Most English people refer to Europeans as if they are of a different culture.

Only amongst themselves. The rest of the time they're photoshopping themselves into Delacroix paintings.

[natty dread]

Maybe they're kinda like the Finnish, who are europeans when it happens to suit them...

[Fruitcake]

'Pure race' Europeans (Germans, French etc) tend to regard the English as nothing more than mongrels (which of course we are) who cause trouble.

The French Ambassador to the Court of St James said of the English "They are a dirty breed given to drunkenness, violence and debauchery. Uneducated and uncouth of word and spirit with little to redeem them." This was scoffed at by the leaders of English society at the time......when was this written? In the late 1600s.....so not much change there then in terms of the perception of the English to this day.

The change in the UK in the last 30 years has generally come from having a series of spineless gutless leaders who want to spend their lives on their knees in front of the zippers of the European leaders swallowing anything these august people want to give them.

There is a generation of people now moving into adulthood who believe they are European while the older generation (including myself) believe we should celebrate our differences and have the odd scrap for fun (but then I was quite a violent little shit when I was younger.....)

[Dukasaur]

I often tease British friends and tell them they're not real Europeans, but the honest truth is that I say those things just for fun. The honest objective truth is that England is a full partner in European culture.

Culture is defined by a series of shared experiences, which in turn impact the art, architecture, and literature of a people, and if you look at the shared experiences which have molded European culture, England has shared in most of them.

Checklist
Roman Occupation -- yes
Germanic Invasions and Dark Ages -- yes
Monastic Ascendancy and traditional Catholicism -- yes
Charlemagne's mini-renaissance -- no
High Middle Ages -- yes
Crusades -- yes
Black Death -- yes
Renaissance -- yes, with some caveats
Reformation and Counter-reformation -- debatable, but again probably yes with caveats
Baroque -- yes
Age of Exploration -- yes, unquestionably
the Enlightenment -- yes
Industrial Revolution -- yes (in fact England started it)
Napoleonic Occupation -- no
the Age of Upheaval -- yes, although milder than on the continent
Romanticism -- yes
the Age of Science and Universal Optimism -- unquestionably yes
the Great War -- yes
the Depression and Fascist Era -- yes, in mild forms
Nazi Occupation -- no
Modernism and post-Modernism -- yes
the Cold War -- yes
the Digital Age -- yes

So there you have it, the major movements and phases that have shaped and molded European culture. England has been a major participant in more than half of them, and at least somewhat involved in almost all.

[eddie2]

lol i live in jersey channel islands we are classed as english but we are not part of the eu.

[saxitoxin]

I often tease British friends and tell them they're not real Europeans, but the honest truth is that I say those things just for fun. The honest objective truth is that England is a full partner in European culture.

Culture is defined by a series of shared experiences, which in turn impact the art, architecture, and literature of a people, and if you look at the shared experiences which have molded European culture, England has shared in most of them.

Checklist
Roman Occupation -- yes
Germanic Invasions and Dark Ages -- yes
Monastic Ascendancy and traditional Catholicism -- yes
Charlemagne's mini-renaissance -- no
High Middle Ages -- yes
Crusades -- yes
Black Death -- yes
Renaissance -- yes, with some caveats
Reformation and Counter-reformation -- debatable, but again probably yes with caveats
Baroque -- yes
Age of Exploration -- yes, unquestionably
the Enlightenment -- yes
Industrial Revolution -- yes (in fact England started it)
Napoleonic Occupation -- no
the Age of Upheaval -- yes, although milder than on the continent
Romanticism -- yes
the Age of Science and Universal Optimism -- unquestionably yes
the Great War -- yes
the Depression and Fascist Era -- yes, in mild forms
Nazi Occupation -- no
Modernism and post-Modernism -- yes
the Cold War -- yes
the Digital Age -- yes

So there you have it, the major movements and phases that have shaped and molded European culture. England has been a major participant in more than half of them, and at least somewhat involved in almost all.

I think this is overly simplistic. What is now Syria suffered Roman occupation, are Syrians European? They also participated in the digital age, Cold War, modernism and depression. What is now Syria experienced the Crusades - does the fact they experienced it on the other side discount that experience? If so, are Italians not European because they imposed, rather than suffered, Roman occupation?

[natty dread]

Being European is a silly concept anyway. First of all there's no such continent as Europe, there's just Eurasia with an imaginary dividing line between Europe and Asia. And what exactly makes one "European"? It's a meaningless word. In this time and age, when we have interwebs and such, all culture is slowly but surely blending into one and same tasteless soup. Regardless if you live in "Europe", "Asia" or "America".

[jonesthecurl]

lol i live in jersey channel islands we are classed as english but we are not part of the eu.

Jersey is not part of England.
Different government.
Separate (though linked) currency.
The Queen is not Queen of Jersey. She "owns" it because she is Duke of Normandy.

[saxitoxin]

Being European is a silly concept anyway. First of all there's no such continent as Europe, there's just Eurasia with an imaginary dividing line between Europe and Asia. And what exactly makes one "European"? It's a meaningless word. In this time and age, when we have interwebs and such, all culture is slowly but surely blending into one and same tasteless soup. Regardless if you live in "Europe", "Asia" or "America".

Nathan may actually be José Barroso IRL.

[Aradhus]

For some time I've thought of England as little America, culturally, increasingly so.

If the question is do the English think of themselves as European, I'm pretty sure the majority answer would be no.

If that isn't the question being asked, can I have it clarified further?

[saxitoxin]

For some time I've thought of England as little America

Funny, I've thought of America as big England.

If that isn't the question being asked, can I have it clarified further?

perhaps

[Aradhus]

If that isn't the question being asked, can I have it clarified further?

perhaps

Is there a reason you're a dickhead to me?

[kabuki.mono]

If you ask English people is they are European, they'll turn around and answer more or less 'f*ck that shit, I'm English' - I think that answers your question.
Even though I do think [player]natty_dread[/player] has a point in what she's saying.

[Dukasaur]

Being European is a silly concept anyway. First of all there's no such continent as Europe, there's just Eurasia with an imaginary dividing line between Europe and Asia

We're talking about culture here, not climatology or plate tectonics or even politics.

And what exactly makes one "European"?

I thought I gave a perfectly workable definition. "A series of shared experiences, which in turn impact the art, architecture, and literature of a people" Can you see a problem with it?

It's a meaningless word. In this time and age, when we have interwebs and such, all culture is slowly but surely blending into one and same tasteless soup. Regardless if you live in "Europe", "Asia" or "America".

True, the blending is occurring, but until it is complete several centuries from now, we will still look at and analyse the European bits and Asian bits and American bits floating in the soup.

[Dukasaur]

Culture is defined by a series of shared experiences, which in turn impact the art, architecture, and literature of a people, and if you look at the shared experiences which have molded European culture, England has shared in most of them.

Checklist
(...)

So there you have it, the major movements and phases that have shaped and molded European culture. England has been a major participant in more than half of them, and at least somewhat involved in almost all.

I think this is overly simplistic. What is now Syria suffered Roman occupation, are Syrians European? They also participated in the digital age, Cold War, modernism and depression. What is now Syria experienced the Crusades - does the fact they experienced it on the other side discount that experience? If so, are Italians not European because they imposed, rather than suffered, Roman occupation?

Coherence requires simplification -- a raw dump of the sum of all knowledge would be pretty useless. So any attempt to provide a coherent view of anything has to be simplified to be useful, and it it then vulnerable to being attacked as "too simplistic." I don't see simplicity as being a valid reason to reject something.

Now, what I did was compose a list of major formative experiences in European culture, and on examination the English are found to have participated in most of that list, so I will count them "in." Is it the last word on the subject? No, of course not. It's a largely subjective list that I knocked off in ten minutes. Someone who wanted to make a career out of it could probably do a lot to improve the list, and could probably come up with some precise numerical formula for who is 82% in versus 84% in. But it probably wouldn't change the final answer. Whether the English would be found to be 83.6% European or only 76.4% isn't the issue, only whether they are mostly European.

I don't know enough about Syria to comment. It really doesn't matter that the Crusades were fought there. What matters is whether a typical Syrian can take you to a cliff, point with pride at a particular outcropping and say with pride, "that is where my ancestor Akbar stood and held steady against the invader!" If it is still part of the local folklore then it is significant; if it is forgotten then it is not.

[natty dread]

Ok, chill down duke. It's not like I called your grandma a whore or anything.

I know it must be titillating to slab that fine & snobby "Européan" label on your forehead. Sip on fine wines with your pinky-finger pointing southeast and discuss modern art with wannabe-sodomites. But it's still an imaginary definition. There's no "Europe" or "European culture", and you know why? It's because the whole concept of "European" is 100% defined by non-europeans.

[saxitoxin]

If that isn't the question being asked, can I have it clarified further?

perhaps

Is there a reason you're a dickhead to me?

possibly

Coherence requires simplification -- a raw dump of the sum of all knowledge would be pretty useless. So any attempt to provide a coherent view of anything has to be simplified to be useful, and it it then vulnerable to being attacked as "too simplistic." I don't see simplicity as being a valid reason to reject something.

Now, what I did was compose a list of major formative experiences in European culture, and on examination the English are found to have participated in most of that list, so I will count them "in." Is it the last word on the subject? No, of course not. It's a largely subjective list that I knocked off in ten minutes. Someone who wanted to make a career out of it could probably do a lot to improve the list, and could probably come up with some precise numerical formula for who is 82% in versus 84% in. But it probably wouldn't change the final answer. Whether the English would be found to be 83.6% European or only 76.4% isn't the issue, only whether they are mostly European.

I don't know enough about Syria to comment. It really doesn't matter that the Crusades were fought there. What matters is whether a typical Syrian can take you to a cliff, point with pride at a particular outcropping and say with pride, "that is where my ancestor Akbar stood and held steady against the invader!" If it is still part of the local folklore then it is significant; if it is forgotten then it is not.

So the English are as European as the Syrians. I'll agree to that.

[Aradhus]

Jealousy because aog is starting to like me more?